Party jams, a funky pocket, and a vocal wah: Roof Garden (Al Jarreau)
Al Jarreau’s “Roof Garden” gets a deep musical listen in this episode of The Musician’s Loupe, from its early-’80s jazz-funk shuffle to its irresistibly precise groove. Trist and Elaine unpack the all-star session players (Jay Graydon, Jerry Hey’s horn section, Steve Gadd, Abe Laboriel, and George Duke) while tracing Jarreau’s vocal range: guitar-like wah-inflected phrasing, tight doubled vocals, scat improvisation, and layered harmony.
In the mailbag, Elaine and Trist answer an audio-engineering question about mix details that most listeners miss but engineers always hear. Their conversation moves from stereo panning, reverb placement, and making room for every instrument in a recording to the live-sound realities of piercing high frequencies, muddy EQ, and feedback. Drawing on concert and mixing anecdotes, Elaine and Trist explain why protecting hearing matters for musicians, especially for singers listening for pitch, blend, and harmony, and make the case for keeping musician’s earplugs close at hand.
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://youtu.be/Wq8JczZ_ul4
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/1CpDrx0Q7f2Wv3tBXDMt6z?si=2944455a1e9e406b
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/roof-garden/321976299
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/tracks/B002FVRTII/?ref=dm_sh_Q0A5Z9aqkl75VUyqp2M1LoLzy
Other links
- Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4uCOVpr4NcWT5SGWlZEnnw?si=8j8p7QwlQxmTNNFwFMvCeg
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-from-the-musicians-loupe-s2/pl.u-e98lkxLs9dqEj
- Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/57132299c0b9470dbd67fcab0b41db79sune?ref=dm_sh_LYPlw2RWiTdf09DUmvLHjqGve
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: This week, we have one of my favorite singers.
Speaker:Trist: I've probably said that a lot,
Speaker:Trist: but truly one of my favorite
Speaker:Trist: singers.
Speaker:Trist: This song comes from an album
Speaker:Trist: where this guy won two Grammys
Speaker:Trist: that I know of, and they include
Speaker:Trist: pop vocal performance and jazz
Speaker:Trist: vocal performance on the same
Speaker:Trist: album.
Speaker:Elaine: Huh!
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Pop Male Vocal. Jazz Male Vocal, when they had those separated
Speaker:Trist: out back in the day.
Speaker:Trist: The reason I'm familiar with
Speaker:Trist: that kind of thing: The
Speaker:Trist: Manhattan Transfer had the same
Speaker:Trist: occurrence on one of their
Speaker:Trist: albums where they won the vocal
Speaker:Trist: jazz and the vocal pop in the
Speaker:Trist: same year.
Speaker:Trist: So it stuck out to me.
Speaker:Trist: That's why I thought about it.
Speaker:Trist: And this record is called Breaking Away, Al Jarreau.
Speaker:Trist: The song we're going to do is "Roof Garden."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh!
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. This is going to be interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Before we get into listening to
Speaker:Elaine: this song, can you share a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit about how we are
Speaker:Elaine: listening to music on The
Speaker:Elaine: Musician's Loupe?
Speaker:Trist: Ooh!
Speaker:Trist: Well, especially on this one, we at The Musician's Loupe love for
Speaker:Trist: you to dig into your best listening environment available.
Speaker:Trist: In our crazy busy lives, sometimes we just do what we got
Speaker:Trist: to do, and the technology is available to have some pretty
Speaker:Trist: good sound with little effort.
Speaker:Trist: But sometimes we skip that step where we put on those extra nice
Speaker:Trist: headphones that we put in the shelf or go into that special
Speaker:Trist: room you have set up for listening, but it's a little
Speaker:Trist: more complicated, so we don't take the time.
Speaker:Trist: So we encourage you, while
Speaker:Trist: listening to The Musician's
Speaker:Trist: Loupe, to try to improve the
Speaker:Trist: listening situation if you are
Speaker:Trist: able.
Speaker:Trist: Of course, we're happy to have you regardless.
Speaker:Elaine: So we are going to leave the
Speaker:Elaine: links to the song in the show
Speaker:Elaine: notes, and we will be right
Speaker:Elaine: back.
Speaker:Elaine: And we are back.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so I was really amazed by
Speaker:Elaine: how much jazz and how much scat
Speaker:Elaine: there was in this really disco
Speaker:Elaine: sounding piece.
Speaker:Trist: Well, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: It's going to have some sounds of that time, the early 80s,
Speaker:Trist: something like '81 I believe is when it's recorded.
Speaker:Trist: So this kind of funky groove.
Speaker:Trist: And of course, coming from a jazz background and the
Speaker:Trist: production team is very much kind of a crossover like that.
Speaker:Trist: Jay Graydon the main producer mind about this.
Speaker:Trist: I believe we've had some Jay Graydon things here before.
Speaker:Trist: Worked with David Foster a lot.
Speaker:Trist: David Foster is on this album elsewhere, even though he's not
Speaker:Trist: on this tune.
Speaker:Trist: I love the funky groove and especially the back half, how
Speaker:Trist: it's just vamp city.
Speaker:Trist: The song is twice as long as you think it's going to be just
Speaker:Trist: because it keeps going.
Speaker:Trist: It's a party.
Speaker:Trist: We oftentimes get breaking down the lyrics and things.
Speaker:Trist: And I think that's what I love
Speaker:Trist: about this is: this one is not
Speaker:Trist: that deep.
Speaker:Trist: There's maybe some stuff hidden
Speaker:Trist: in there that you'll let me know
Speaker:Trist: of that I never thought of
Speaker:Trist: before.
Speaker:Trist: But man, I just love how the whole thing is just a vibe.
Speaker:Elaine: I definitely heard the party
Speaker:Elaine: aspect of it and it was such a
Speaker:Elaine: fun song, just from a jam and a
Speaker:Elaine: groove perspective.
Speaker:Elaine: I started out thinking it was disco because of the rhythm,
Speaker:Elaine: because of the orchestration.
Speaker:Elaine: There were a ton of horns in there.
Speaker:Elaine: There was a very classic
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Rhodes keyboard in there.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: The electric bass definitely sounded a lot more funky.
Speaker:Elaine: It was doing something rhythmic.
Speaker:Elaine: There were definitely places where the fills were being done
Speaker:Elaine: by various instruments.
Speaker:Elaine: So that's why I thought it sounded pretty disco, but it
Speaker:Elaine: wasn't exactly disco.
Speaker:Elaine: It wasn't
Speaker:Trist: No.
Speaker:Elaine: your classic,
Speaker:Trist: Not really.
Speaker:Elaine: you
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: know?
Speaker:Elaine: So how would you define the song?
Speaker:Trist: It's just a funky party jam to me.
Speaker:Trist: The people on this recording are incredible.
Speaker:Trist: And as I've said many times,
Speaker:Trist: this is full of players that all
Speaker:Trist: of you listeners probably have
Speaker:Trist: heard hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker:Trist: times.
Speaker:Trist: again with Jay Graydon, the producer, playing guitars on it.
Speaker:Trist: The horn section was actually
Speaker:Trist: the same horn section as on a
Speaker:Trist: previous episode, our episode of
Speaker:Trist: "Cool."
Speaker:Trist: So Jerry Hey and his horn
Speaker:Trist: section that plays on
Speaker:Trist: everything, all those Michael
Speaker:Trist: Jackson records.
Speaker:Trist: The drummer is Steve Gadd, just one of the all time greats.
Speaker:Trist: He plays on Paul Simon stuff and James Taylor.
Speaker:Trist: The opening groove to "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover" is
Speaker:Trist: probably the signature thing people not into the minutia of
Speaker:Trist: the players would at least recognize that drum part.
Speaker:Trist: He's fantastic.
Speaker:Trist: Abe Laboriel is the bass player,
Speaker:Trist: George Duke playing Fender
Speaker:Trist: Rhodes.
Speaker:Trist: Incredible band.
Speaker:Trist: So there's no wonder there's such pocket, such great feel.
Speaker:Trist: It's just a fun party to me.
Speaker:Elaine: Ane hundred percent.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, you did mention in the intro that Al Jarreau had won
Speaker:Elaine: two Grammys for this album, and I could totally understand that.
Speaker:Elaine: I'd love to talk a little bit about his voice on this track.
Speaker:Elaine: What do you hear?
Speaker:Trist: Ooh!
Speaker:Trist: I love using this example with singers.
Speaker:Trist: If I'm giving lessons for like
Speaker:Trist: song interpretation and maybe
Speaker:Trist: tone color to like a pop or jazz
Speaker:Trist: singer.
Speaker:Trist: I love this as an example because it definitely goes
Speaker:Trist: outside the norm.
Speaker:Trist: It hits some colors in our tapestry that we don't access a
Speaker:Trist: lot as a vocalist, we have so much focus on delivering a lyric
Speaker:Trist: and being understood and maybe painting a mood.
Speaker:Trist: to me, the full intention of this is, "Oh, this is basically
Speaker:Trist: a guitar song, but I'm a singer and I'm going to sing it
Speaker:Trist: instead" is what I hear.
Speaker:Trist: I hear him, "Does anyone want to
Speaker:Trist: go waltzing in the garden?" is
Speaker:Trist: the first.
Speaker:Trist: So, "Does anyone want..." so
Speaker:Trist: pronouncing the lyrics is not
Speaker:Trist: important, but "Does anyone in
Speaker:Trist: the garden" like you won't like
Speaker:Trist: the sound of it is what's
Speaker:Trist: important.
Speaker:Trist: The lyric to me is just a vehicle for the sound.
Speaker:Trist: what I hear is him not trying to think of delivering a lyric.
Speaker:Trist: He's an amazing vocalist and can
Speaker:Trist: deliver a ballad and hit you in
Speaker:Trist: the heartstrings.
Speaker:Trist: He can get you in the feels with delivering a lyric and just this
Speaker:Trist: isn't that kind of song.
Speaker:Elaine: I hear his voice do a couple of
Speaker:Elaine: different things, and I
Speaker:Elaine: definitely picked up on what you
Speaker:Elaine: just said.
Speaker:Elaine: I actually wrote down.
Speaker:Elaine: It's almost like a natural wah on his voice, like a
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: wah pedal.
Speaker:Trist: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And I actually couldn't
Speaker:Elaine: understand the lyrics the first
Speaker:Elaine: two times that I listened to it,
Speaker:Elaine: because I was like, I don't
Speaker:Elaine: know!
Speaker:Elaine: What is he saying?
Speaker:Elaine: And so
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: it took me a couple of listens through to figure out what he
Speaker:Elaine: was trying to say.
Speaker:Elaine: I also had the transcription of the lyrics.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that helped me a little bit.
Speaker:Elaine: But as I was listening to the
Speaker:Elaine: rest of the song, the other
Speaker:Elaine: section.
Speaker:Elaine: So if you consider that the chorus.
Speaker:Elaine: Then the other theme, which you might call the verses, that was
Speaker:Elaine: sung pretty straight and it was sung doubled as well.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like that amount of precision that I heard in the
Speaker:Elaine: doubling, because I heard those two voices like him singing, and
Speaker:Elaine: then him singing that same line again as being so precise that
Speaker:Elaine: it sounded like one voice, but I heard that it was panned and
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: it was not exactly perfect, but it was close enough that if you
Speaker:Elaine: weren't listening for it, you wouldn't be able to hear it.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that was that level of precision.
Speaker:Elaine: And then, of course, there were the scat sections,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: which was another type of placement and definitely sung a
Speaker:Elaine: lot more straight than that guitar "wah" sound.
Speaker:Elaine: So I heard three things from him, and I just thought that
Speaker:Elaine: that was amazing, the flexibility in his voice.
Speaker:Trist: That's interesting.
Speaker:Trist: Even in preparing this, I hadn't
Speaker:Trist: thought of it in terms of the
Speaker:Trist: form.
Speaker:Trist: But now that I think about it, it's really odd.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't feel like there
Speaker:Trist: really is a chorus, because I
Speaker:Trist: don't think da da da da dum dum
Speaker:Trist: dum dum.
Speaker:Trist: That seems like a verse to me.
Speaker:Trist: And it's funny because the da da da da da da da da da da da da.
Speaker:Trist: That sounds almost like it's going to be a pre-chorus or
Speaker:Trist: something, but cleverly, it often goes back to what I just
Speaker:Trist: called the verse.
Speaker:Trist: But even in another tonal center.
Speaker:Trist: So it's like the second time when it comes out of that, it's
Speaker:Trist: back kind of on the four instead of the one.
Speaker:Trist: So it's.
Speaker:Trist: And then so he's doing the same thing.
Speaker:Trist: It just
Speaker:Elaine: Ya.
Speaker:Trist: moves up.
Speaker:Trist: And then he does the da da da again.
Speaker:Trist: And then it comes back.
Speaker:Trist: So it's
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: interesting.
Speaker:Trist: I didn't even think about where that moves around, but I know
Speaker:Trist: that it moves around a lot.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and maybe that's a cool trick to make it feel like
Speaker:Trist: there's more form than there is because it's really just those
Speaker:Trist: two sections and then a vamp.
Speaker:Elaine: And I definitely heard that
Speaker:Elaine: there were different
Speaker:Elaine: harmonizations where there were
Speaker:Elaine: certain parts
Speaker:Trist: Oh, sure.
Speaker:Elaine: of it where there was full three part harmony.
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: It first started out with just a single voice.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think it built up to that.
Speaker:Elaine: And there was movement because
Speaker:Elaine: of the difference in the vocal
Speaker:Elaine: orchestration.
Speaker:Elaine: So I definitely heard a
Speaker:Elaine: variation of it and a building
Speaker:Elaine: that I think was really subtle
Speaker:Elaine: to me.
Speaker:Elaine: I didn't catch it until I think
Speaker:Elaine: the second or third time
Speaker:Elaine: through.
Speaker:Trist: That's why I like doing these and picking songs that I feel
Speaker:Trist: like I really, really know.
Speaker:Trist: But then when we break them down or you share some thoughts or
Speaker:Trist: insight, I go to a place I hadn't thought about before, and
Speaker:Trist: I hadn't even really considered that element of the form.
Speaker:Trist: I just enjoy it so much.
Speaker:Trist: I don't think about it.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't feel strange to me other than now that I'm trying
Speaker:Trist: to talk about it and talk about a section that's the chorus and
Speaker:Trist: the bridge, in normal terms.
Speaker:Trist: And it doesn't really have those normal type of sections.
Speaker:Trist: It's really kind of A, B, a, B,
Speaker:Trist: and other little interludes and
Speaker:Trist: then a big long vamp that's
Speaker:Trist: really fun.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about that vamp and the scat
Speaker:Trist: Oh,
Speaker:Elaine: that happened over it?
Speaker:Trist: Love it.
Speaker:Trist: LOVE it.
Speaker:Trist: I've heard interviews over the years from Al, and because it
Speaker:Trist: comes from a jazz place, he was saying that as he's making
Speaker:Trist: records, he had to kind of discipline himself not to take
Speaker:Trist: every song to quote the jazz place that he would like to say.
Speaker:Trist: So like on his song "We're In This Love Together," which I
Speaker:Trist: think what got him the pop Grammy from this album.
Speaker:Trist: There's some jazzy elements, but it's a pop song.
Speaker:Trist: And so there's not a big scat flourish section that's featured
Speaker:Trist: to be played on the radio, etc.. So I hear him going, okay, this
Speaker:Trist: is one that is for that.
Speaker:Trist: So I think you got more
Speaker:Trist: deliberate about, oh, when it's
Speaker:Trist: time for that, I'm really gonna
Speaker:Trist: do it.
Speaker:Trist: And I love this extra vamp at the end.
Speaker:Trist: The thing I also love about the vamp, if you can go back, listen
Speaker:Trist: to the horn section as it goes through the vamp and when you
Speaker:Trist: first hear it, it sounds just like, oh, there's these horn
Speaker:Trist: parts that just repeat over and over, but there's subtle little
Speaker:Trist: differences in the rhythms.
Speaker:Trist: Like the rhythms are just
Speaker:Trist: different enough to keep it
Speaker:Trist: interesting and not just be
Speaker:Trist: boring.
Speaker:Trist: I love little hidden differences like that in the backgrounds.
Speaker:Elaine: Speaking of the differences in
Speaker:Elaine: the backgrounds, I also marked
Speaker:Elaine: down: there was a full stop at
Speaker:Elaine: minute
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: 3:44, and it was a total pause.
Speaker:Elaine: And then it picked back up again.
Speaker:Trist: And that's almost the intro to now we're definitely vamping.
Speaker:Trist: We might have been faking committing to the, but now we're
Speaker:Trist: definitely just vamping.
Speaker:Trist: We are not returning to where we just were ever again.
Speaker:Trist: We are full bore ahead.
Speaker:Elaine: So let's change directions here and talk about the tempo.
Speaker:Trist: Mm!
Speaker:Elaine: One thing that you and I had
Speaker:Elaine: talked about before was pop
Speaker:Elaine: songs and how nowadays we
Speaker:Elaine: actually don't hear a ton of pop
Speaker:Elaine: songs right in the middle in
Speaker:Elaine: terms of tempo, we either hear
Speaker:Elaine: the slower ballads or we hear
Speaker:Elaine: the faster, upbeat kinds of
Speaker:Elaine: things.
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: And I
Speaker:Trist: One
Speaker:Elaine: found
Speaker:Trist: twenty
Speaker:Elaine: it,
Speaker:Trist: at
Speaker:Elaine: abs.
Speaker:Trist: least, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Exactly.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And I found it absolutely
Speaker:Elaine: fascinating that this nailed 100
Speaker:Elaine: beats per minute, which is
Speaker:Elaine: exactly
Speaker:Trist: Haha.
Speaker:Elaine: that "Stayin' Alive" kind of thing.
Speaker:Trist: You're right.
Speaker:Trist: A really great groove, can't take off.
Speaker:Trist: If it goes too fast, it just doesn't groove as much.
Speaker:Trist: But again, those players that I mentioned.
Speaker:Trist: Go to anything those people play
Speaker:Trist: on, and you'll just hear that
Speaker:Trist: consistency.
Speaker:Trist: Such a great pocket.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker:Elaine: how people learn how to live in
Speaker:Elaine: the pocket?
Speaker:Trist: Lots of people have made money trying to pretend that they
Speaker:Trist: could teach that to somebody.
Speaker:Trist: To me, with music feels and
Speaker:Trist: styles, you can point to a few
Speaker:Trist: things.
Speaker:Trist: You can give a few hints.
Speaker:Trist: But man, at the end of the day, listening to it and absorbing it
Speaker:Trist: is the only way.
Speaker:Trist: And repetition and practice.
Speaker:Trist: It's the relationship with the other instruments around you,
Speaker:Trist: and all of its collective relationship with whatever the
Speaker:Trist: pocket is that you've agreed on.
Speaker:Trist: Not even talking about it by just listening.
Speaker:Trist: And it's really the way everybody subdivides.
Speaker:Trist: So it's not about one, two,
Speaker:Trist: three, four, two, two, three,
Speaker:Trist: four.
Speaker:Trist: It's the in between.
Speaker:Trist: It's the one and two and three and four or one four to one.
Speaker:Trist: And it's the sub divisions whether it's One-and-two-
Speaker:Trist: and-three- and- uh it's the breaking up of it
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: that needs to be together with everyone being together.
Speaker:Elaine: I hear you there.
Speaker:Elaine: Especially on this song.
Speaker:Elaine: It has a little bit of what I would qualify as maybe a bit of
Speaker:Elaine: a shuffle, uh,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: associated
Speaker:Trist: It's
Speaker:Elaine: with it.
Speaker:Trist: yep.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: The rhythm is not exactly straight.
Speaker:Elaine: And so
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: you feel it in this particular
Speaker:Elaine: song that It has that groove to
Speaker:Elaine: it that you can almost fall
Speaker:Elaine: into.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Where it's not swing like big band swing is.
Speaker:Trist: But the swing is in the
Speaker:Trist: sixteenth note rather than the
Speaker:Trist: eighth note.
Speaker:Trist: So instead of da da da da da da
Speaker:Trist: da da da da da da da da da da
Speaker:Trist: da.
Speaker:Trist: Like it's in the smaller subdivision is
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: swung than the than the bigger subdivision.
Speaker:Trist: If I explain that well.
Speaker:Trist: Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da
Speaker:Trist: dun dun dun dun dun dun.
Speaker:Trist: So it's swinging at a smaller subdivision than a normal ABA
Speaker:Trist: daba daba daba.
Speaker:Trist: Very bad explanation for that.
Speaker:Trist: But sixteenth note swing rather than eighth note swing.
Speaker:Elaine: Part of the reason I find this entertaining is that you and I
Speaker:Elaine: talk about notation, and you and I fall on opposite ends of the
Speaker:Elaine: notation spectrum where you're like, it's just a description.
Speaker:Elaine: It's really about the feel.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm like, well, there's notation.
Speaker:Elaine: So I feel like most of the time
Speaker:Elaine: you and I talk, I'm all about
Speaker:Elaine: notation.
Speaker:Elaine: You're like, I don't care about notation.
Speaker:Elaine: This time you gave a very notation
Speaker:Trist: Right,
Speaker:Elaine: answer.
Speaker:Elaine: So I was highly entertained
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: by that.
Speaker:Trist: Well that's how you would write it down.
Speaker:Trist: And it's still not quite exactly that.
Speaker:Trist: It's the closest representation to convey your idea to someone
Speaker:Trist: of what to do.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And interestingly enough, there are a couple of things in there
Speaker:Elaine: that I also wanted to mention.
Speaker:Elaine: One is that the pocket is a feel.
Speaker:Elaine: The pocket is something, as you
Speaker:Elaine: were mentioning, is a common
Speaker:Elaine: understanding, but execution on
Speaker:Elaine: the pocket is different than
Speaker:Elaine: understanding where the pocket
Speaker:Elaine: is.
Speaker:Trist: Ooh, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Sure. Totally.
Speaker:Elaine: If I think about it more like
Speaker:Elaine: dance, I feel like that is
Speaker:Elaine: actually something that might,
Speaker:Elaine: for the layperson make a little
Speaker:Elaine: bit more sense because if you
Speaker:Elaine: are dancing and you try to hit
Speaker:Elaine: exactly the beat, you have to
Speaker:Elaine: start moving a little bit sooner
Speaker:Elaine: than the beat actually is so
Speaker:Elaine: that you actually land on the
Speaker:Elaine: beat.
Speaker:Elaine: And that is something that I think for some people, can be
Speaker:Elaine: very challenging because they're thinking, oh, I hear the beat.
Speaker:Elaine: This is where the motion starts.
Speaker:Elaine: As opposed to no, this is where
Speaker:Elaine: your actual strike needs to
Speaker:Elaine: happen as a percussion
Speaker:Elaine: instrumentalist, being a piano
Speaker:Elaine: player, that is something that
Speaker:Elaine: you are very aware of, of where
Speaker:Elaine: does a hammer actually hit the
Speaker:Elaine: string?
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: I think for other instruments,
Speaker:Elaine: it's slightly different when you
Speaker:Elaine: actually start the motion or
Speaker:Elaine: when you actually start the
Speaker:Elaine: breathwork or when the note
Speaker:Elaine: actually lands.
Speaker:Elaine: And also, what's a relationship
Speaker:Elaine: of being off rhythm versus on
Speaker:Elaine: rhythm and
Speaker:Trist: Right,
Speaker:Elaine: what creative choices you make there?
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Trist: In the dance analogy, like if you were in some big group kind
Speaker:Trist: of dancing, everyone being all together on whatever big steps
Speaker:Trist: they are, that's cool.
Speaker:Trist: But the way that you do the
Speaker:Trist: stuff between to get to the
Speaker:Trist: steps.
Speaker:Trist: So that's the parallel to the music thing I was just talking
Speaker:Trist: about, like, sure, you can all be together on the different
Speaker:Trist: places that you land at a certain spot in a dance.
Speaker:Trist: But if you can be together on all the stuff you do between the
Speaker:Trist: steps, the more of that together, the more it's going to
Speaker:Trist: look visually amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, one last thing about that is: I talked about some written
Speaker:Trist: way to describe that.
Speaker:Trist: The feeling description of it is
Speaker:Trist: what you felt when it got to the
Speaker:Trist: stop.
Speaker:Trist: It's when it stopped.
Speaker:Trist: And then when it came back in.
Speaker:Trist: In any tune that has a stop time like that, it feels so good
Speaker:Trist: because the musicians have formed that pocket that's like
Speaker:Trist: kind of unstoppable.
Speaker:Elaine: And that brings the listener along with it where you're
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: like, oh, I know exactly where the reference point is.
Speaker:Elaine: And when it comes back in, it's expected.
Speaker:Trist: And that happens after a good amount of time.
Speaker:Trist: It could almost be starting to fade the regular part of the
Speaker:Trist: song, but it's like, nope, Boom.
Speaker:Trist: Here we go.
Speaker:Trist: It's just the right amount of space.
Speaker:Trist: You're like, oh, okay.
Speaker:Trist: And it falls right into this groove.
Speaker:Trist: The longer the repetition of it, the more you're in that pocket
Speaker:Trist: feeling that groove.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, anything else you want to
Speaker:Elaine: say about this before we wrap
Speaker:Elaine: up?
Speaker:Trist: I would just say everything again, how much I love it.
Speaker:Trist: And just these players!
Speaker:Trist: Investigate these players, listeners, dig into the
Speaker:Trist: discographies and the places where these people have made
Speaker:Trist: music, especially producer Jay Graydon, and some of these other
Speaker:Trist: players that we mentioned, just amazing careers they all had.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, we're going to
Speaker:Elaine: wrap up and move into our next
Speaker:Elaine: segment,
Speaker:Trist: Mm!
Speaker:Elaine: which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mailbag!
Speaker:Elaine: That's right. The Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: And if you would like to get
Speaker:Elaine: ahold of us, you can email us at
Speaker:Elaine: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com
Speaker:Elaine: That's L o u p e, or
Speaker:Elaine: @themusiciansloupe on Threads or
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram.
Speaker:Trist: If you have some other note about maybe the first time you
Speaker:Trist: heard "Roof Garden" or your thoughts about your favorite Al
Speaker:Trist: Jarreau tune or anything like that, that is a great place to
Speaker:Trist: let us know your thoughts.
Speaker:Elaine: So this week's mailbag comes
Speaker:Elaine: from @omgzazzie from May of
Speaker:Elaine: 2026.
Speaker:Elaine: And this person writes: "Audio
Speaker:Elaine: engineers, what's one small
Speaker:Elaine: detail in a mix that most
Speaker:Elaine: listeners never notice, but you
Speaker:Elaine: always do?"
Speaker:Trist: I don't know if it's small.
Speaker:Trist: I almost always listen to the panning.
Speaker:Trist: Because when you are an engineer, it's something you
Speaker:Trist: need to make space.
Speaker:Trist: If you have a stereo spectrum, you want the vocal kind of in
Speaker:Trist: the center right at you where everyone can hear it.
Speaker:Trist: And then, the kick drum and the bass part are usually fairly
Speaker:Trist: toward the center of the mix, but maybe a little guitar part
Speaker:Trist: or a different little keyboard, or that might be a little bit
Speaker:Trist: over to the side where you move things in the sound spectrum
Speaker:Trist: around just to give everything its own place to live.
Speaker:Trist: So the ear can kind of hear it all.
Speaker:Trist: And so I think when most people are just listening to it, they
Speaker:Trist: do naturally hear it all because you've done the work of
Speaker:Trist: spreading things out.
Speaker:Trist: When the choir comes at the end, you have it panned so it fills
Speaker:Trist: up the whole spectrum rather than just being all clumped
Speaker:Trist: right in the middle.
Speaker:Trist: Or does the reverb go in a
Speaker:Trist: certain direction, etc.. I don't
Speaker:Trist: think people think of those
Speaker:Trist: things as much as maybe
Speaker:Trist: engineers do, because we're
Speaker:Trist: always trying to do that work of
Speaker:Trist: making everything have its
Speaker:Trist: space.
Speaker:Trist: So even if we're not working or
Speaker:Trist: we are just enjoying, I still
Speaker:Trist: will notice.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, I love how that percussion
Speaker:Trist: stuff is way over there, panned
Speaker:Trist: hard right.
Speaker:Trist: Or I love how it moves from the left to the right.
Speaker:Trist: I'll just notice that stuff because it's something that I've
Speaker:Trist: had to be concerned about.
Speaker:Trist: So, I'll make a mental note of how I liked that and maybe it'll
Speaker:Trist: show up in a mix I do in five years or something like that.
Speaker:Trist: If you point it out to most people, they can hear, oh yeah,
Speaker:Trist: the tambourine is over there and the guitar is over there.
Speaker:Trist: But it's not something that I think a lot of people think
Speaker:Trist: about or pay attention to when they first hear music.
Speaker:Elaine: Do you think you make the same
Speaker:Elaine: choices or you listen for the
Speaker:Elaine: same thing in live music versus
Speaker:Elaine: a recording?
Speaker:Trist: No, I don't think so.
Speaker:Trist: I like to believe that in live performance I can get lost in
Speaker:Trist: just enjoying the performance.
Speaker:Trist: the artist's curse, if you're an actor, you know, it must be hard
Speaker:Trist: to just sit and watch a TV show or a movie without.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, that's such poor lighting.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, that's such bad writing.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, why did he walk in the door
Speaker:Trist: that way?" Stuff that I don't
Speaker:Trist: think about because I'm not an
Speaker:Trist: actor.
Speaker:Trist: Unless something is just really
Speaker:Trist: bad, that's usually when I
Speaker:Trist: notice things in live
Speaker:Trist: performance is if something is
Speaker:Trist: just done really poorly, because
Speaker:Trist: I know what it takes to do those
Speaker:Trist: things.
Speaker:Trist: So if I hear it not done well, then I notice it.
Speaker:Trist: I might realize five songs into
Speaker:Trist: something that's been mixed
Speaker:Trist: great.
Speaker:Trist: Like, wow, I haven't thought about the mix once.
Speaker:Trist: I've just enjoyed the music,
Speaker:Trist: which means they're doing their
Speaker:Trist: job and I'm just lost in this
Speaker:Trist: performance.
Speaker:Trist: This performer has done enough to draw me in, to give me these
Speaker:Trist: feelings, send me these messages, tell me these stories,
Speaker:Trist: entertain me, give me this vibe, where I didn't think about how
Speaker:Trist: the snare drum sounds and the reverb on it, and how the kick
Speaker:Trist: drum is gated, and how much compression is on the bass and
Speaker:Trist: any of that stuff, unless it's just so bad that I just like, oh
Speaker:Trist: man, it would sound so much better if this was happening.
Speaker:Trist: I go in at least anticipating
Speaker:Trist: and attempting not to think
Speaker:Trist: technically about it until
Speaker:Trist: there's stuff that I wish I
Speaker:Trist: could fix.
Speaker:Elaine: It's entertaining you mentioned
Speaker:Elaine: that because I've been using the
Speaker:Elaine: analogy of audio engineering in
Speaker:Elaine: a bunch of other work stuff
Speaker:Elaine: where I'm like, oh yeah, it's
Speaker:Elaine: like the front of house
Speaker:Elaine: engineer.
Speaker:Elaine: No one really notices that
Speaker:Elaine: person until something goes
Speaker:Elaine: wrong.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Like when
Speaker:Trist: Or an
Speaker:Elaine: there's
Speaker:Trist: official in a sporting event.
Speaker:Elaine: yeah, when there's feedback, right?
Speaker:Trist: Right,
Speaker:Elaine: When when you get feedback on a mic,
Speaker:Trist: right
Speaker:Elaine: everyone turns around and looks at the front of house
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: guy.
Speaker:Elaine: It's interesting that you talk about that for me, I was
Speaker:Elaine: primarily thinking about live as opposed to recorded music.
Speaker:Elaine: I'd have to go back and think about recorded music.
Speaker:Elaine: I have this clear memory of walking down the street with a
Speaker:Elaine: good friend of mine, and he was asking me about a concert that I
Speaker:Elaine: had just gone to, and I said, oh man, I just couldn't get over
Speaker:Elaine: how high the 10Ks were.
Speaker:Elaine: And he looks at me and I look at
Speaker:Elaine: him and he's like, this is why
Speaker:Elaine: we're friends.
Speaker:Elaine: And there were a couple of
Speaker:Elaine: instances – that concert was
Speaker:Elaine: one.
Speaker:Elaine: And then I went to see a theater show some years later where it
Speaker:Elaine: was the same thing.
Speaker:Elaine: The highs were far too high.
Speaker:Elaine: It was far too piercing.
Speaker:Elaine: I had musician's earbuds in and it was still like, oh man, those
Speaker:Elaine: highs are really high.
Speaker:Elaine: And that's I think the thing
Speaker:Elaine: that I would be most sensitive
Speaker:Elaine: to is the overall shape of the
Speaker:Elaine: mix.
Speaker:Elaine: It's like, oh, there's not enough bass or the mids are so
Speaker:Elaine: muddy or something like that.
Speaker:Elaine: I feel like the overall balance
Speaker:Elaine: of EQ is something that I pay
Speaker:Elaine: attention to a lot in live
Speaker:Elaine: scenarios.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that's something that I
Speaker:Elaine: feel like, oh, no one else would
Speaker:Elaine: notice.
Speaker:Elaine: Like I was, you know, watching
Speaker:Elaine: this theater show with someone
Speaker:Elaine: close to me who is not a
Speaker:Elaine: musician.
Speaker:Elaine: And when I mentioned it to her, she was like, oh yeah, I did
Speaker:Elaine: notice that there was something a little bit painful about it,
Speaker:Elaine: but I couldn't identify it.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was immediately like, no,
Speaker:Elaine: the 10Ks are too high in this
Speaker:Elaine: theater.
Speaker:Trist: Two anecdotes that come to mind very quickly, as quickly as I
Speaker:Trist: possibly can, at least.
Speaker:Trist: Humans tend to lose that part first.
Speaker:Trist: That's the part of the hearing that kind of goes first is the
Speaker:Trist: super high end, especially if you do work in it a long time.
Speaker:Trist: Um, I mixed the show once where
Speaker:Trist: I was mixing for an opening
Speaker:Trist: band.
Speaker:Trist: And then the main artist came out and the engineer liked how I
Speaker:Trist: mixed it so well.
Speaker:Trist: He was very complimentary.
Speaker:Trist: And then as I was about to leave, I said, oh, thank you so
Speaker:Trist: much, I appreciate it.
Speaker:Trist: I look forward to the show.
Speaker:Trist: He stopped me for a moment and said, hey, could you hang on and
Speaker:Trist: listen to the first song or two?
Speaker:Trist: I'm getting old and my high end is just shot, which was also
Speaker:Trist: something that was rare that a sound engineer just admitted to
Speaker:Trist: me that they they weren't hearing great anymore up top.
Speaker:Trist: Which was cool because he just knew that was a thing.
Speaker:Trist: He's like, I just don't think about it.
Speaker:Trist: And I mix it to my hearing and then I'll have people complain
Speaker:Trist: that the high end is really bad because he's compensating.
Speaker:Trist: And it was true, the first song or two, I was like, okay, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Right about 10K, right about 8K, you could dip probably five dB
Speaker:Trist: from where you are now.
Speaker:Trist: And he's like, oh, thanks a lot, man.
Speaker:Trist: So that was interesting.
Speaker:Trist: And then I have some friends.
Speaker:Trist: I went to a new apartment they lived in, had a nice surround
Speaker:Trist: stereo system set up.
Speaker:Trist: We're going to watch something and turn on all the equipment
Speaker:Trist: and went to play some music.
Speaker:Trist: And there was this really,
Speaker:Trist: really high, really high squeal,
Speaker:Trist: at about 10 or 12 K. To me just
Speaker:Trist: super obvious.
Speaker:Trist: And I kept looking at them like, oh, is this other component
Speaker:Trist: going to turn on?
Speaker:Trist: And then that goes away or oh, when we turn on the TV, does
Speaker:Trist: this sound go away and whatever?
Speaker:Trist: And it just never did.
Speaker:Trist: And eventually I said something
Speaker:Trist: about it, and the two of them
Speaker:Trist: looked at me like, what are you
Speaker:Trist: talking about?
Speaker:Trist: And so I had to get the RTA, the real time analyzer on my app
Speaker:Trist: that I had on my phone that shows a graph of the audio that
Speaker:Trist: the mic is picking up off the phone and you could see the
Speaker:Trist: regular rumblings and sounds of us talking in the room.
Speaker:Trist: And then there was this spike, like this 10 K like this noise
Speaker:Trist: was just happening.
Speaker:Trist: And both of them just looked at each other like, whoa.
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Trist: Too many loud concerts for us, I guess.
Speaker:Trist: Like they had lost that part of their hearing that they didn't
Speaker:Trist: even hear it.
Speaker:Trist: And I was just going crazy.
Speaker:Trist: And until I showed them on the
Speaker:Trist: graph that it was there, they
Speaker:Trist: had no idea what I was even
Speaker:Trist: talking about.
Speaker:Trist: So anyway, that's what I thought of when you mentioned that.
Speaker:Elaine: And when you were talking about that, it reminds me a little bit
Speaker:Elaine: about restaurant design.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't
Speaker:Trist: Mm!
Speaker:Elaine: know if you pay attention
Speaker:Trist: uh,
Speaker:Elaine: to this,
Speaker:Trist: it
Speaker:Elaine: but sometimes
Speaker:Trist: if
Speaker:Elaine: there
Speaker:Trist: I'm constantly
Speaker:Elaine: are.
Speaker:Trist: annoyed by it.
Speaker:Trist: Yes.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Well, sometimes you are in
Speaker:Elaine: a restaurant, it's all concrete
Speaker:Elaine: or some
Speaker:Trist: Right,
Speaker:Elaine: kind of like a lot of hard surfaces.
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: And so every noise just bounces off of everything else.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And so then I end up pretty overwhelmed and
Speaker:Trist: There's
Speaker:Elaine: I.
Speaker:Trist: yeah, there's
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: a certain vibe they're going for.
Speaker:Trist: They want: Oh, this is a happening place.
Speaker:Trist: So some people, if they're just designing it or thinking about
Speaker:Trist: it, they're not thinking about the context of someone trying to
Speaker:Trist: have a conversation of any kind or how some people are super
Speaker:Trist: sensitive to that.
Speaker:Trist: They just think of, oh, I love that it creates a live
Speaker:Trist: atmosphere and it's not quote unquote dead in here.
Speaker:Trist: It seems like it's alive and happening.
Speaker:Trist: And, that's often really annoying to me.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that that's something that I do want to maintain
Speaker:Elaine: though, just that sensitivity to that type of sound.
Speaker:Elaine: I remember one of our mutual friends posting on social media,
Speaker:Elaine: 15, 20 years ago that our hearing is the core of who we
Speaker:Elaine: are as singers and musicians, so we should be trying to maintain
Speaker:Elaine: it as much as possible.
Speaker:Elaine: And he recommended some musician's earplugs to always
Speaker:Elaine: carry around with you.
Speaker:Elaine: I have them on my keys right now.
Speaker:Elaine: So if I'm in a loud situation like that, I'm constantly just
Speaker:Elaine: putting something into my ears,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: even if it's just a little bit painful, because I know that if
Speaker:Elaine: I want to be able to tune in that higher frequency, if I want
Speaker:Elaine: to be able to hear what I'm doing and adjust on the fly.
Speaker:Elaine: You and I both sing a ton of
Speaker:Elaine: harmony, that type of locking
Speaker:Elaine: in, it's harder to do without
Speaker:Elaine: those highs in there because
Speaker:Elaine: you're losing a part of your
Speaker:Elaine: hearing spectrum.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: especially since our world nowadays is so loud, it is one
Speaker:Elaine: of those things where I just feel like it's so important to
Speaker:Elaine: me to keep those on me at all times, because you never know
Speaker:Elaine: when it's going to be so loud, it could damage your hearing.
Speaker:Trist: Indeed, I carry them most places I go.
Speaker:Trist: I'm frustrated if I ever forget them and need them, and
Speaker:Trist: basically have to find a restroom and wad up some toilet
Speaker:Trist: paper to just protect my ears for the night if I forget them
Speaker:Trist: at a concert.
Speaker:Trist: Even an act that I don't suspect is going to be extra loud.
Speaker:Trist: But if I'm sitting in just the wrong spot, or the way the
Speaker:Trist: engineer has it happening, or the room just happens to be
Speaker:Trist: extra bright, it's like, man.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes it just also becomes so much more clean when you have
Speaker:Trist: your earplugs in.
Speaker:Trist: So I'm the same way.
Speaker:Trist: Keep them with me all the time.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, anything that you'd like to say to wrap this up?
Speaker:Trist: That is it.
Speaker:Trist: But yeah, protect your hearing, protect your hearing and
Speaker:Elaine: One
Speaker:Trist: your
Speaker:Elaine: hundred
Speaker:Trist: kid's
Speaker:Elaine: percent?
Speaker:Trist: hearing.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes, a hundred percent.
Speaker:Elaine: I am with you on that.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, we're going to wrap up for today.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we do, we have a big favor to ask of you.
Speaker:Elaine: Please do share an episode or one of our playlists.
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Trist: Whatever mediums you're on to listen to us, do all the stuff.
Speaker:Trist: Please like, subscribe, all of the different interactions that
Speaker:Trist: just help us keep on doing it.
Speaker:Trist: Appreciate it.
Speaker:Trist: Check out the playlist, share the playlist with friends.
Speaker:Trist: Let them know you've listened to this, even if you've only
Speaker:Trist: listened to one or two.
Speaker:Trist: And maybe the playlist will have you wanting to learn about a
Speaker:Trist: particular song that you maybe didn't know before.
Speaker:Trist: Love to have you.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: With that, we will see you next week.
Speaker:Trist: was I that terrible?
Speaker:Elaine: and I biff them half the time,
Speaker:Trist: what are you talking about?
Speaker:Trist: We're improvising.
Speaker:Elaine: dang, we sound so good.
Speaker:Trist: You said that in New Jersey.
Speaker:Elaine: something that I honestly not honestly.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, it is honest, but,
Speaker:Trist: Is that an actual place to the heartstrings?
Speaker:Elaine: you said that for, like, thirty
Speaker:Elaine: five episodes and now you're
Speaker:Elaine: like, no.
Speaker:Trist: seriously, the horns
