Indie rock, bluegrass, and a superhero fight scene: Hayloft (Nickel Creek)
Explore the intersection of bluegrass and indie rock through Nickel Creek’s cover of "Hayloft." Trist and Elaine dissect Nickel Creek's faithful interpretation of Mother Mother’s song, unpacking the musical tension, innovative instrumentation like the Greek bouzouki, and how the band preserves the original’s intensity while infusing their signature acoustic sound. The discussion delves into arrangement choices, vocal effects, and the role of musical osmosis on tour.
In the Mailbag segment, the discussion turns toward the challenges adult musicians face balancing creativity with corporate life. Eland and Trist offer honest perspectives on integrating creativity into all parts of life and managing the inherent friction between a creative life and a day job in a non-musical field. This candid conversation provides solidarity and practical wisdom for musicians striving to keep their creative passion alive in everyday life.
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://youtu.be/Si3zSXXkEMc
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/6dacQ4sqYOVuQKTzSBK2de?si=4466875fd1f64bd6
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/hayloft/821289810
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/tracks/B00IL645IS/?ref=dm_sh_4eUDdXcvfdQ8HzSV4iHSpE2Xy
Other links
- Original song by Mother Mother - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFt0s7crDfo
- Wikipedia article on the Bouzouki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouzouki
- Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4uCOVpr4NcWT5SGWlZEnnw?si=8j8p7QwlQxmTNNFwFMvCeg
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-reviewed-on-the-musicians-loupe/pl.u-V9D7maah06JNo
- Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/57132299c0b9470dbd67fcab0b41db79sune?ref=dm_sh_LYPlw2RWiTdf09DUmvLHjqGve
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, Elaine, we've got something a little bit different.
Speaker:Trist: We like to mix it up here at The Musician's Loupe.
Speaker:Trist: We've got one of my favorite bluegrass harmony vocal groups.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Um, but they're covering a Canadian indie rock band.
Speaker:Elaine: Ohhhh-kay.
Speaker:Trist: How about that?
Speaker:Trist: We haven't really delved into either of those things
Speaker:Elaine: No,
Speaker:Trist: yet.
Speaker:Elaine: we haven't.
Speaker:Trist: So the group that we're looking at today is Nickel Creek.
Speaker:Trist: Nickel
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Creek is a trio and the song is "Hayloft."
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to listening to this,
Speaker:Trist: Mm-hm!
Speaker:Elaine: but before we get into it, can
Speaker:Elaine: you remind our listeners how we
Speaker:Elaine: should be listening to music as
Speaker:Elaine: a part of The Musician's Loupe
Speaker:Elaine: community?
Speaker:Trist: You've joined us.
Speaker:Trist: We are thrilled that you've joined us wherever you are.
Speaker:Trist: If you have the ability to take
Speaker:Trist: a moment and improve your
Speaker:Trist: listening situation, we strongly
Speaker:Trist: recommend it.
Speaker:Trist: We rarely take time in our lives to have the finer things.
Speaker:Trist: So even if it's just putting on
Speaker:Trist: those nicer headphones or going
Speaker:Trist: into the better listening room,
Speaker:Trist: we just encourage that you do
Speaker:Trist: that because The Musician's
Speaker:Trist: Loupe is all about the
Speaker:Trist: listening.
Speaker:Elaine: So we are going to leave the links to the song in the show
Speaker:Elaine: notes and we will be right back.
Speaker:Elaine: That was so much fun.
Speaker:Elaine: I
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: did not expect this.
Speaker:Elaine: And it ended up being just an incredibly delightful piece.
Speaker:Trist: This is why I chose it.
Speaker:Trist: I really just love the energy of it.
Speaker:Trist: It's enjoyable whether you know the group or not.
Speaker:Trist: It stands on its own.
Speaker:Trist: And frankly, it's unlike really just about any other song I
Speaker:Trist: think they've ever recorded, especially their first few
Speaker:Trist: albums, which are very much more, more traditional bluegrass
Speaker:Trist: sounding, even new bluegrass.
Speaker:Trist: They're kind of younger when they started out.
Speaker:Trist: This kind of left turn for them was really fun.
Speaker:Elaine: I could really hear that indie
Speaker:Elaine: rock that you were talking
Speaker:Elaine: about.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think this is part of the
Speaker:Elaine: reason I was really confused
Speaker:Elaine: about bluegrass, because it
Speaker:Elaine: didn't sound like a bluegrass
Speaker:Elaine: group.
Speaker:Elaine: And I will say that the first
Speaker:Elaine: thing that I wrote down was:
Speaker:Elaine: "It's acoustic meets 007
Speaker:Elaine: intensity," because it starts
Speaker:Elaine: out with this really drilling,
Speaker:Elaine: repetitive, almost ostinato kind
Speaker:Elaine: of feeling that has an
Speaker:Elaine: incredible musical tension to
Speaker:Elaine: it.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: then, it just keeps on going from there and it just sounds so
Speaker:Elaine: wild and free.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: We'll get into the lyrics in a
Speaker:Trist: minute, but when you figure out
Speaker:Trist: what the lyrics and the setting,
Speaker:Trist: it actually kind of makes sense
Speaker:Trist: that you would have this tense,
Speaker:Trist: almost like you said, cinematic,
Speaker:Trist: like, ooh, there's this tension
Speaker:Trist: building.
Speaker:Trist: Something's about to happen.
Speaker:Elaine: And at the same time, it's absolutely acoustic.
Speaker:Elaine: The feeling that I was thinking about was a certain amount of
Speaker:Elaine: wildness that you get in incredibly exuberant, I'd say
Speaker:Elaine: like Mediterranean, Middle Eastern music, you could see
Speaker:Elaine: people flying around.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a lot of jumping involved in the dancing.
Speaker:Elaine: You can throw yourself directly
Speaker:Elaine: into the music and it feels like
Speaker:Elaine: a whirlwind.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like that was something that I felt as a part
Speaker:Elaine: of the song, even though it was more bluegrass, indie rock, but
Speaker:Elaine: I just kept on going back to this type of enthusiasm that you
Speaker:Elaine: hear in this type of music.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know whether I'm just
Speaker:Elaine: thinking Greek music or the type
Speaker:Elaine: of dancing that happens in Egypt
Speaker:Elaine: or Arabic speaking countries
Speaker:Elaine: where it's you just really get
Speaker:Elaine: into it.
Speaker:Trist: Sure. Just to share a little bit more about this.
Speaker:Trist: So the Canadian indie band that
Speaker:Trist: they're covering is called
Speaker:Trist: "Mother Mother."
Speaker:Trist: And this tune came from maybe 2008 or something like that is
Speaker:Trist: when it was recorded.
Speaker:Trist: Now in preparing for this
Speaker:Trist: episode, I was looking and I
Speaker:Trist: couldn't find this anecdote
Speaker:Trist: anywhere, but I'm sure that I've
Speaker:Trist: heard – now we'll put our legal
Speaker:Trist: disclaimer on the episode like
Speaker:Trist: we do every episode, that the
Speaker:Trist: things that especially Trist
Speaker:Trist: says are not necessarily the
Speaker:Trist: truth, but you never let the
Speaker:Trist: truth get in the way of a good
Speaker:Trist: story.
Speaker:Trist: That's also one of the rules we live by here.
Speaker:Trist: I'm pretty sure I heard that this is the case.
Speaker:Trist: So one of their touring sound
Speaker:Trist: engineers from the jump, this
Speaker:Trist: was a song that was a favorite
Speaker:Trist: of his and he would always play
Speaker:Trist: it maybe even to listen to the
Speaker:Trist: sound system, but he played it
Speaker:Trist: frequently enough.
Speaker:Trist: I think some of our listeners,
Speaker:Trist: if any of the musicians have
Speaker:Trist: been out on a tour, a lot of
Speaker:Trist: times the sound engineer will
Speaker:Trist: play a lot of the same music to
Speaker:Trist: listen to the room that they're
Speaker:Trist: in just because they're familiar
Speaker:Trist: with it.
Speaker:Trist: So they'll instantly hear, oh, this room is really bright or
Speaker:Trist: boomy, or it has extra frequencies, or it bounces off
Speaker:Trist: this wall weird.
Speaker:Trist: They really want to play music that they know really well, so
Speaker:Trist: they can hear differences in every room that they're in.
Speaker:Trist: So they play it so much that
Speaker:Trist: even though your artists might
Speaker:Trist: not always be there, and if they
Speaker:Trist: are, they're back in a dressing
Speaker:Trist: room somewhere.
Speaker:Trist: They're not really in the room with you, but they still hear
Speaker:Trist: these songs over and over and over and over, depending on when
Speaker:Trist: you're on a tour.
Speaker:Trist: And eventually they all just knew it.
Speaker:Trist: It was in their bones just
Speaker:Trist: because they'd heard it so many
Speaker:Trist: times.
Speaker:Trist: They'd learned the song by osmosis, and either eventually
Speaker:Trist: in a soundcheck started just playing it or one of them
Speaker:Trist: decided one day, "You know, we should actually do that song."
Speaker:Trist: And so I think it's maybe their fourth album in, they went ahead
Speaker:Trist: and just added it to the album.
Speaker:Trist: And that's another reason why that makes more sense to why
Speaker:Trist: it's kind of an oddity where it's not really in the canon of
Speaker:Trist: the kind of music they write.
Speaker:Trist: As they grew, they grew out of
Speaker:Trist: more traditional bluegrass
Speaker:Trist: sounds, but with the instruments
Speaker:Trist: they play and that being their
Speaker:Trist: background, you still would hear
Speaker:Trist: a lot of folk Americana,
Speaker:Trist: roots-based music.
Speaker:Trist: But that's why this one is such a left turn.
Speaker:Elaine: It's interesting that you talk about bluegrass because let's go
Speaker:Elaine: back to this.
Speaker:Elaine: When I think bluegrass, I'm
Speaker:Elaine: thinking mandolin, guitar,
Speaker:Elaine: upright bass maybe, and some
Speaker:Elaine: acoustic percussion.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was looking at the liner notes or whatever is provided on
Speaker:Elaine: YouTube and saw this thing called a bouzouki.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was like, what's a bouzouki?
Speaker:Elaine: And of course, I had to go and look that up.
Speaker:Elaine: And as I was looking at it, it's
Speaker:Elaine: a Greek instrument, like a Greek
Speaker:Elaine: folk instrument.
Speaker:Elaine: And I just thought it was
Speaker:Elaine: interesting that they had
Speaker:Elaine: introduced that as a part of
Speaker:Elaine: this.
Speaker:Elaine: Maybe that's why I was thinking Greek.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: Um, because it's this lute- like instrument.
Speaker:Elaine: It's apparently a part of traditional Greek music.
Speaker:Elaine: And so thinking about that,
Speaker:Elaine: knowing that about this track,
Speaker:Elaine: how would you rationalize
Speaker:Elaine: bluegrass and this traditional
Speaker:Elaine: Greek instrument?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it just for the tone, or is it something that you think
Speaker:Elaine: might add to the feel and the vibe of things?
Speaker:Trist: Now that you point that out, so Chris Thile, one of the male
Speaker:Trist: vocalists and mandolin player.
Speaker:Trist: He's the one that plays that instrument.
Speaker:Trist: This is one of those things
Speaker:Trist: where everybody involved in this
Speaker:Trist: organization is pretty
Speaker:Trist: incredible.
Speaker:Trist: But then all of those really good musicians all look at each
Speaker:Trist: other and like, oh, well, he's the genius one though.
Speaker:Trist: He's the one that usually stands out.
Speaker:Trist: Chris Thile has had an incredible career, and he does a
Speaker:Trist: lot of different kinds of music.
Speaker:Trist: So it doesn't surprise me that his ear might have picked up on
Speaker:Trist: the idea to use that instrument just to give maybe a deeper
Speaker:Trist: character than just the mandolin, which I can hear that
Speaker:Trist: he's playing on there as well.
Speaker:Trist: So if he is indeed playing that on there, I think that would be
Speaker:Trist: maybe why, just wanting to add that character because when you
Speaker:Trist: hear the original, they didn't reinvent the wheel.
Speaker:Trist: They did not try to create their own version.
Speaker:Trist: It's literally just original and creative enough that they're
Speaker:Trist: doing this particular song with not the instruments of the
Speaker:Trist: original song, but with violin, guitar, mandolin, some more
Speaker:Trist: added percussion, different kinds of percussion added on
Speaker:Trist: this track than their normal songs to again, especially just
Speaker:Trist: because they're trying to achieve the vibe for this cover.
Speaker:Elaine: Speaking of the vibe for this cover, how much do you think the
Speaker:Elaine: effects on the vocals were indicative of this indie rock?
Speaker:Elaine: Because I could definitely see
Speaker:Elaine: this as a part of an indie rock
Speaker:Elaine: thing, but
Speaker:Trist: Oh,
Speaker:Elaine: do
Speaker:Trist: it's
Speaker:Elaine: you.
Speaker:Trist: yeah, it's definitely playing to just copying the original.
Speaker:Trist: It's not an exact copy, but the
Speaker:Trist: original lead vocal is that
Speaker:Trist: doubled sound and has definitely
Speaker:Trist: effected.
Speaker:Trist: So definitely understanding even
Speaker:Trist: if they don't do the exact same
Speaker:Trist: treatment, they treated those
Speaker:Trist: vocals accordingly.
Speaker:Elaine: I see.
Speaker:Elaine: That totally makes sense then
Speaker:Elaine: that it was reminiscent of the
Speaker:Elaine: original.
Speaker:Elaine: What
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: other elements of the original
Speaker:Elaine: do you think carried over to
Speaker:Elaine: this one?
Speaker:Trist: Oh man.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, literally everything.
Speaker:Trist: I don't think there are any
Speaker:Trist: reharmonizations, no different
Speaker:Trist: chords, the vocals, even the
Speaker:Trist: kind of very cool, like the
Speaker:Trist: seconds up on the top of the
Speaker:Trist: "hay-LOFT" when they do that
Speaker:Trist: little high second, it's exactly
Speaker:Trist: the same.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh,
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: interesting.
Speaker:Trist: it's- Again, it didn't really take many liberties other than
Speaker:Trist: using the instruments.
Speaker:Trist: The interesting little key
Speaker:Trist: shift, the little modulation
Speaker:Trist: that's in it before it kind of
Speaker:Trist: pops back up, that's all the
Speaker:Trist: same.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: That's about, I think the two minute thirty second mark or so.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, in re-listening to it.
Speaker:Trist: I liked that the dee doo dee doo dee doo doo doo dee dee.
Speaker:Trist: The little riff that we were talking about that opens it, it
Speaker:Trist: opens on mandolin.
Speaker:Trist: When it reappears, it's in the guitar, which
Speaker:Elaine: Mm.
Speaker:Trist: is kind of cool.
Speaker:Trist: Something that didn't stick out to me early on, but I enjoyed
Speaker:Trist: that different texture later on as it appears later.
Speaker:Trist: Or, maybe that was also maybe
Speaker:Trist: that was the instrument you
Speaker:Trist: mentioned, it's possible that
Speaker:Trist: that was this, bouzouki, you
Speaker:Trist: said?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, the bouzouki.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe that's what it was played on the other time.
Speaker:Trist: I can't say I know what that instrument sounds like.
Speaker:Trist: I'm gonna investigate it more after this now.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the things that we know about the mandolin is that it's
Speaker:Elaine: a doubled string instrument, so it's more like a twelve string
Speaker:Elaine: guitar in that way, in that there are two strings for every
Speaker:Elaine: note that is in the chord.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it sounds a little bit fuller because of that, but
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: it's also a very high pitched instrument.
Speaker:Elaine: So I could see where the mandolin might be interesting
Speaker:Elaine: there, as opposed to a banjo, which is a single string
Speaker:Elaine: instrument, or a guitar,
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: etc.. And so my understanding of
Speaker:Elaine: the bouzouki, just reading that
Speaker:Elaine: Wikipedia article, which we'll
Speaker:Elaine: include in
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: the show notes so that everyone can take a look at it, is
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: that it's also a single string per note instrument.
Speaker:Elaine: So it probably
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: sounds a lot closer to a guitar.
Speaker:Trist: That could be the case.
Speaker:Trist: Compared to their normal thing
Speaker:Trist: because they're coming usually
Speaker:Trist: from a more traditional
Speaker:Trist: bluegrass sound, there's
Speaker:Trist: obviously way heavier groove on
Speaker:Trist: the song than their normal
Speaker:Trist: tunes.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit more about the rhythm changes?
Speaker:Elaine: I know we had talked about the key change that went up and then
Speaker:Elaine: back down into the original key, and then right after that,
Speaker:Elaine: there's a number of different things that they play with.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that also in the original track?
Speaker:Trist: Ooh. That all might have gotten by me, Elaine.
Speaker:Trist: The thing that I did make note of when I went back and listened
Speaker:Trist: to the original again more recently is like, wow.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I've forgotten how much they really just copy this.
Speaker:Trist: I'll have to re research that to see if it does follow this thing
Speaker:Trist: you're talking about.
Speaker:Trist: But yeah, that wasn't something that stood out to me.
Speaker:Elaine: I'd like to go back to think about the vocals, because
Speaker:Elaine: obviously this is something that you and I both obsess about.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's interesting to me how well and how good the blend is
Speaker:Elaine: between the vocalists.
Speaker:Elaine: Is
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: this the same kind of blend that they have on their more
Speaker:Elaine: traditional bluegrass pieces?
Speaker:Elaine: Or is this more like they're emulating this indie rock style,
Speaker:Trist: Uh
Speaker:Elaine: and so that's where the blend comes from?
Speaker:Trist: oh, the the blend comes from several things.
Speaker:Trist: The fact that they've played together for so long.
Speaker:Trist: I think they formed in like 1990 or '89 or something when they
Speaker:Trist: were just wee kids, and two of them are siblings.
Speaker:Trist: Uh,
Speaker:Elaine: Oh.
Speaker:Trist: the fiddle player Sara and the guitarist Sean.
Speaker:Trist: All three of them sing.
Speaker:Trist: So Chris plays mandolin, Sara
Speaker:Trist: plays fiddle, and Sean plays
Speaker:Trist: guitar.
Speaker:Trist: And the two of them are brother
Speaker:Trist: and sister, so that always helps
Speaker:Trist: a blend.
Speaker:Trist: But then they've just done it so
Speaker:Trist: long, and they're all so
Speaker:Trist: musical.
Speaker:Trist: And of course a super natural trait of bluegrass vocals is
Speaker:Trist: just really a good balance and blend on those harmonies,
Speaker:Trist: especially because generally that music is performed live
Speaker:Trist: around a single microphone.
Speaker:Trist: So you're usually doing all of
Speaker:Trist: that blending and balancing live
Speaker:Trist: yourself.
Speaker:Trist: There's not an engineer that's doing it for you.
Speaker:Trist: And related to the song: yes, still the crazy blend, but the
Speaker:Trist: tone and the timbre is unlike their normal singing.
Speaker:Trist: It's more like they are trying
Speaker:Trist: to copy or at least bring in
Speaker:Trist: that sound.
Speaker:Trist: I could play you another
Speaker:Trist: recording of them, which we may
Speaker:Trist: include for everyone that you'd
Speaker:Trist: be like, oh yeah, they're
Speaker:Trist: amazing.
Speaker:Trist: And I can hear that they're the same people, but they're
Speaker:Trist: definitely putting on an affected sound, both affected on
Speaker:Trist: their own voice and then putting an effect on it to make it more
Speaker:Trist: similar to the original.
Speaker:Elaine: I think, the question underneath the question.
Speaker:Trist: Okay,
Speaker:Elaine: So thanks
Speaker:Trist: great.
Speaker:Elaine: for answering that.
Speaker:Elaine: I was also going to ask: tell me
Speaker:Elaine: about what you saw in the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: I generally don't really quote
Speaker:Trist: unquote get the lyrics on a
Speaker:Trist: first listen of a song every
Speaker:Trist: time because we've talked about
Speaker:Trist: this before here, as I'm often
Speaker:Trist: so into what's happening
Speaker:Trist: technically and musically, that
Speaker:Trist: sometimes I miss the whole boat
Speaker:Trist: of: "what's really important is
Speaker:Trist: the lyric."
Speaker:Trist: And in this one, the very first
Speaker:Trist: time I ever heard it, I was
Speaker:Trist: like, ah, I know what this
Speaker:Trist: song's about.
Speaker:Trist: It was really clear right away what this song's about, and just
Speaker:Trist: a random kind of cool topic.
Speaker:Trist: But again, having that lyric come after the setup, just that,
Speaker:Trist: like we've talked about just, it's so fitting.
Speaker:Trist: Even though there's not a lot of
Speaker:Trist: lyrics and they're not extra
Speaker:Trist: deep or anything, there's not a
Speaker:Trist: lot of double meanings or
Speaker:Trist: anything.
Speaker:Trist: It's pretty much on the nose.
Speaker:Trist: You get a mental image.
Speaker:Trist: You can see the video if you've never seen a video of it.
Speaker:Elaine: I love that idea of a visual or
Speaker:Elaine: a movie because there was a
Speaker:Elaine: segment in it when it changes
Speaker:Elaine: key.
Speaker:Elaine: We were talking
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: about that before.
Speaker:Elaine: So at about minute 2 to 2:30 or
Speaker:Elaine: so, it changes key and it goes
Speaker:Elaine: into the straight up
Speaker:Elaine: instrumental.
Speaker:Elaine: What I had written down for that section was: "It's kind of like
Speaker:Elaine: the middle of a superhero fight scene," where you're just
Speaker:Elaine: expecting to see like "Biff!" "Bam!" like a 1950s
Speaker:Trist: right?
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Batman and Robin
Speaker:Trist: Uh-huh.
Speaker:Elaine: fistfight.
Speaker:Elaine: And that's really what I felt during that time.
Speaker:Elaine: And then when it went into this
Speaker:Elaine: other section that I referred to
Speaker:Elaine: earlier with the rhythm changes,
Speaker:Elaine: it really seemed to redefine the
Speaker:Elaine: one.
Speaker:Elaine: And so
Speaker:Trist: Oh,
Speaker:Elaine: you were
Speaker:Trist: I
Speaker:Elaine: kind of
Speaker:Trist: see.
Speaker:Elaine: off balance during that period because it was redefining the
Speaker:Elaine: one over and over again.
Speaker:Elaine: And then it went back into the
Speaker:Elaine: more driving theme that it had
Speaker:Elaine: before.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And that's part of what made it delightful for me was the
Speaker:Elaine: visuals that came into my head in almost this melodramatic
Speaker:Elaine: retelling of the single
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: drama within a family.
Speaker:Trist: You're right, that could be they're chasing each other
Speaker:Trist: around or whatever.
Speaker:Trist: All those things kind of describe all the lyrics there.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, is there anything else
Speaker:Elaine: that you want to say about this
Speaker:Elaine: track before we move into our
Speaker:Elaine: next segment?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, Elaine, do I ever!
Speaker:Trist: Just before we came on to record
Speaker:Trist: this, I happened to look up one
Speaker:Trist: more thing.
Speaker:Trist: So you know how the song kind of
Speaker:Trist: ends and it's kind of not
Speaker:Trist: finished.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a cliffhanger that happens here, right?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Oh, Elaine, you'll never guess what.
Speaker:Elaine: What?
Speaker:Trist: There's a Hayloft II.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, no. Really?
Speaker:Trist: I only learned about that maybe five minutes before I got on
Speaker:Trist: here to make this pod with you.
Speaker:Trist: The original band had so many
Speaker:Trist: requests about this song, about,
Speaker:Trist: "What happened?
Speaker:Trist: What's going on?
Speaker:Trist: What's the story?" And so years later, they made the answer.
Speaker:Trist: They made the "Hayloft II."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Trist: Yes. Instead of putting in the show notes, I think we're just
Speaker:Trist: going to let the listeners just fend for themselves.
Speaker:Trist: You got to go find it.
Speaker:Trist: But it's easy to find.
Speaker:Trist: Spoiler alert: the daughter gets her revenge.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: I'll just say that.
Speaker:Trist: I'll just say that.
Speaker:Elaine: I think it's interesting to think about how music can build
Speaker:Elaine: on top of itself.
Speaker:Elaine: So what came to mind as you were sharing this little tidbit, is
Speaker:Elaine: the album that you recommended to me from The Story, the,
Speaker:Trist: Oh,
Speaker:Elaine: the
Speaker:Trist: yes.
Speaker:Elaine: band.
Speaker:Elaine: There were two tracks on this album that you were pointing out
Speaker:Elaine: as I was trying to figure out how it all fit together.
Speaker:Elaine: And you pointed out these these
Speaker:Elaine: two tracks are actually
Speaker:Elaine: bookends.
Speaker:Elaine: They were related to one another.
Speaker:Elaine: It was almost a before and after type of
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Elaine: And when I listened to it again, I was like, oh my goodness,
Speaker:Elaine: you're totally right.
Speaker:Elaine: It is hilarious.
Speaker:Elaine: But yeah, the sense of music can
Speaker:Elaine: connect narratives with one
Speaker:Elaine: another.
Speaker:Elaine: And of course, we see that all
Speaker:Elaine: the time, with musicals and
Speaker:Elaine: cantatas.
Speaker:Elaine: It is a big part of our musical history.
Speaker:Elaine: But at the same time, I guess we
Speaker:Elaine: don't necessarily see this
Speaker:Elaine: across albums or we don't
Speaker:Elaine: necessarily see the before and
Speaker:Elaine: after the way that you're
Speaker:Elaine: sharing here.
Speaker:Elaine: So maybe that is a little
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: bit special.
Speaker:Trist: that would be a good place to hear from listeners.
Speaker:Trist: You can share your thoughts when you write in to us.
Speaker:Trist: If anyone has a sequel song,
Speaker:Trist: like, oh, this song that was
Speaker:Trist: left unanswered.
Speaker:Trist: And then there was a sequel.
Speaker:Trist: We see this in movies and in books.
Speaker:Trist: But I don't think it's
Speaker:Trist: incredibly frequent that
Speaker:Trist: songwriters give you another
Speaker:Trist: chapter that they didn't intend,
Speaker:Trist: they wanted
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: to leave it, and then they give
Speaker:Trist: you a sequel like this
Speaker:Trist: particular one.
Speaker:Trist: And again, I didn't even know it existed before until just before
Speaker:Trist: we jumped on, so I was pretty excited to find it.
Speaker:Elaine: I can't wait to hear it,
Speaker:Trist: And
Speaker:Elaine: so.
Speaker:Trist: it's actually pretty cleverly done musically.
Speaker:Trist: It's not more of the same.
Speaker:Trist: It's a different song, slightly different melodies and stuff,
Speaker:Trist: but lots of the same.
Speaker:Trist: I think that little repeating figure happens a lot of the same
Speaker:Trist: song structure, but it is its own different composition.
Speaker:Trist: So that was kind of fun to learn about.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that closing, how can we beat that?
Speaker:Elaine: Let's move on to our next segment, which is?
Speaker:Trist: Bum bum bum bum bum bum mailbag,
Speaker:Trist: bum bum bum bum bum bum bum
Speaker:Trist: mailbag.
Speaker:Trist: That was bad.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: The mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: And if you would like to get a hold of us, you can email us at
Speaker:Elaine: themusiciansloupe, that's L o u p e at gmail dot com.
Speaker:Elaine: Or you can reach out to us at @themusiciansloupe on both
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram and Threads.
Speaker:Trist: And as I've just mentioned, that is the great place that you can
Speaker:Trist: reach out with a correction or just an additional bit of
Speaker:Trist: information you want to share with us about something we said
Speaker:Trist: in the episode.
Speaker:Trist: Please, please let us know there.
Speaker:Elaine: So this week comes from Threads again.
Speaker:Elaine: And this is from August of 2026.
Speaker:Elaine: It's from @themerrillmiller.
Speaker:Elaine: And he writes, "As a musician,
Speaker:Elaine: the constant friction of working
Speaker:Elaine: in a corporate world versus
Speaker:Elaine: creating is driving me
Speaker:Elaine: absolutely insane.
Speaker:Elaine: For years, I've pondered how to
Speaker:Elaine: use music to make money so I can
Speaker:Elaine: survive.
Speaker:Elaine: But then I realized something.
Speaker:Elaine: We don't need music to survive.
Speaker:Elaine: We need it to live.
Speaker:Elaine: We need music to dance to, to laugh to, to cry to.
Speaker:Elaine: To express joy and love and anger.
Speaker:Elaine: But as a musician forced into a
Speaker:Elaine: tiny box where all of those
Speaker:Elaine: things are seen as flaws and not
Speaker:Elaine: as being human, it's
Speaker:Elaine: exhausting."
Speaker:Elaine: And going on, there are two responses that I wanted to read
Speaker:Elaine: out to you before we start talking about this.
Speaker:Elaine: One of them is from
Speaker:Elaine: @mattramos247, who says, "I get
Speaker:Elaine: it.
Speaker:Elaine: Unfortunately, I get it.
Speaker:Elaine: It's sad.
Speaker:Elaine: Too many years supporting missions I don't agree with
Speaker:Elaine: working in environments where what someone is is more
Speaker:Elaine: important than who.
Speaker:Elaine: Following a structure meant to
Speaker:Elaine: benefit a small fraction of
Speaker:Elaine: people within.
Speaker:Elaine: But we can't stop creating.
Speaker:Elaine: One way or another, creating simply can't be suppressed.
Speaker:Elaine: I share your exhaustion and frustration."
Speaker:Elaine: And another response comes from @davetonymusic.
Speaker:Elaine: "I identify with this deeply.
Speaker:Elaine: The hardest part isn't just
Speaker:Elaine: about having a job outside of
Speaker:Elaine: music.
Speaker:Elaine: It's constantly shifting between a world that asks you to contain
Speaker:Elaine: yourself in an art form that requires you to be fully alive.
Speaker:Elaine: I've learned that music doesn't
Speaker:Elaine: need to justify itself by paying
Speaker:Elaine: every bill.
Speaker:Elaine: I want it to be profitable.
Speaker:Elaine: But before it was a business, it
Speaker:Elaine: was how I processed life, told
Speaker:Elaine: the truth, loved, survived, and
Speaker:Elaine: understood myself."
Speaker:Elaine: So, this one I think is near and
Speaker:Elaine: dear to my heart because I am a
Speaker:Elaine: musician with a day job, and my
Speaker:Elaine: day job is in the corporate
Speaker:Elaine: world.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I'd like you to just, I
Speaker:Elaine: guess, respond to that to begin
Speaker:Elaine: with.
Speaker:Elaine: And then, I have some things to say, definitely, but I'm curious
Speaker:Elaine: what you think.
Speaker:Trist: I think I'm way more interested in hearing from you about this,
Speaker:Trist: just because I've been fortunate enough to have been able to
Speaker:Trist: avoid a bit of that and also a bit of choice in avoiding it.
Speaker:Trist: And I've been fortunate to get to do that.
Speaker:Trist: So I haven't had very frequently to deal with this constant
Speaker:Trist: friction of working in a corporate world versus creating.
Speaker:Trist: and it's kind of one of the joys
Speaker:Trist: of most of the music making I've
Speaker:Trist: ever had to do, is it was not
Speaker:Trist: like that.
Speaker:Trist: So I think I definitely would
Speaker:Trist: like to hear from you about this
Speaker:Trist: for sure.
Speaker:Elaine: I have very complicated emotions when it comes to this, and I
Speaker:Elaine: think part of it is how I process music, and part of it is
Speaker:Elaine: how I approach work, which I think maybe approaches it
Speaker:Elaine: slightly differently than most people, at least these three
Speaker:Elaine: gentlemen who were sharing here.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the things that I really struggled with in my 20s was
Speaker:Elaine: dividing my time and attention between things that seemed like
Speaker:Elaine: they were creative and seemed that they were not.
Speaker:Elaine: And it took me quite some time
Speaker:Elaine: to figure out that I was just a
Speaker:Elaine: whole being, and I was bringing
Speaker:Elaine: my entire self to whatever I was
Speaker:Elaine: doing.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like that actually
Speaker:Elaine: changed the way that I perceived
Speaker:Elaine: things when it came to how
Speaker:Elaine: creative my job is and my job,
Speaker:Elaine: although it's very business
Speaker:Elaine: oriented, very technology
Speaker:Elaine: oriented, it is still very
Speaker:Elaine: creative.
Speaker:Elaine: It's creative in how I find solutions to problems.
Speaker:Elaine: It's creative in how I approach
Speaker:Elaine: people and there are some days
Speaker:Elaine: that I walk out of my job not
Speaker:Elaine: exhausted physically, but
Speaker:Elaine: exhausted in the same way that
Speaker:Elaine: I'd be exhausted if I were on
Speaker:Elaine: stage.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that that is something that might be unique
Speaker:Elaine: to my position, might be unique to my company, might be unique
Speaker:Elaine: to what I do in my job role.
Speaker:Elaine: And on the other hand, looking at music, I think that I don't
Speaker:Elaine: necessarily approach music from a purely emotional standpoint.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that you and I both know that there's a lot of math.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a lot of that kind of
Speaker:Elaine: left brain thinking in figuring
Speaker:Elaine: out like, okay, what's the
Speaker:Elaine: division here?
Speaker:Elaine: How do I notate this particular thing?
Speaker:Elaine: That is very much precision,
Speaker:Elaine: analytical, trying to solve
Speaker:Elaine: certain problems is a different
Speaker:Elaine: problem space.
Speaker:Elaine: So even while you're doing front of house or something like that,
Speaker:Elaine: you're like, oh, okay, how am I hearing this particular thing?
Speaker:Elaine: How do I shift this curve so that it sounds the way that I
Speaker:Elaine: want it to?
Speaker:Elaine: All of that is incredibly analytical.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think about it less as I'm turning off my creative
Speaker:Elaine: brain to go to work and more like I am bringing my entire
Speaker:Elaine: self to work, and I'm bringing my entire self to make music,
Speaker:Elaine: and I'm exercising all parts of my brain, both analytical and
Speaker:Elaine: creative and relational and emotional wherever I am.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that actually maybe shifts my perception about the
Speaker:Elaine: value of corporate work or how much I enjoy my corporate job,
Speaker:Elaine: because I really do enjoy it.
Speaker:Elaine: And I don't see it necessarily at this point in time in my life
Speaker:Elaine: as a sheer sacrifice, that I'm giving up music to be able to do
Speaker:Elaine: this corporate job because there are people who I really care
Speaker:Elaine: about in my corporate job.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that that's what leads into me feeling torn about
Speaker:Elaine: hearing people who are really feeling like they're straddling
Speaker:Elaine: these two different worlds, because I have in some way,
Speaker:Elaine: maybe surprisingly, managed to find a place where I can
Speaker:Elaine: straddle both of them and feel like myself in both locations.
Speaker:Trist: Just touching on what you were discussing, it's interesting the
Speaker:Trist: way that you were saying that when you get more analytical
Speaker:Trist: about stuff, I think people miss that there's that element and
Speaker:Trist: it's mostly just to get, the technicalities of the music down
Speaker:Trist: so well so that you can get to the emotional part that you're
Speaker:Trist: sharing or telling.
Speaker:Trist: When you're writing and creating it, there's not really a lot of
Speaker:Trist: technical to get through.
Speaker:Trist: You're the one that created it.
Speaker:Trist: So most of the time it's something you can technically
Speaker:Trist: understand and play.
Speaker:Trist: And because you thought of it and you're sharing an emotion,
Speaker:Trist: an idea through it.
Speaker:Trist: You're almost all emotion when you're in that process, but when
Speaker:Trist: you're taking something from someone else, you might
Speaker:Trist: understand, oh, I like this piece of music.
Speaker:Trist: I like this emotion that I share through it.
Speaker:Trist: And then you go to learn it.
Speaker:Trist: And in the time that you're
Speaker:Trist: learning it, you're breaking it
Speaker:Trist: down what the chords are
Speaker:Trist: rhythms, notes, etc., about
Speaker:Trist: presenting it.
Speaker:Trist: What the final emotional impact and delivery is kind of goes out
Speaker:Trist: of your mind for a while because you're just trying to gather
Speaker:Trist: what the musical information is.
Speaker:Trist: Then when you've got that, then
Speaker:Trist: you're imbuing it with that
Speaker:Trist: emotion again.
Speaker:Trist: Just was something I noticed, as you said that, that I didn't
Speaker:Trist: really think of and wasn't sure that maybe all the listeners
Speaker:Trist: would even really consider that that's a process that happens
Speaker:Trist: when you're a musician.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the things that you said
Speaker:Elaine: also triggered this additional
Speaker:Elaine: thought, which is I'm not sure
Speaker:Elaine: it is possible to be completely
Speaker:Elaine: yourself and vulnerable in every
Speaker:Elaine: single gig that you do, because
Speaker:Elaine: you never know how you're going
Speaker:Elaine: to feel.
Speaker:Elaine: You never know if you have the stomach flu.
Speaker:Elaine: There are times that you have to fake it because you can't
Speaker:Elaine: actually bring the core emotion to the space.
Speaker:Elaine: There are times that you just
Speaker:Elaine: have to show up and do your
Speaker:Elaine: best.
Speaker:Elaine: And those are all situations that I've been in where I'm not
Speaker:Elaine: necessarily feeling it, but it's my entire job to bring it.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I'm going to do my job
Speaker:Elaine: the best that I can, even though
Speaker:Elaine: on the inside I might be dying a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit.
Speaker:Elaine: So I just wonder about that because you've toured so much.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that something that you've dealt with?
Speaker:Trist: Well, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: And also even if you're feeling fine, but it's day 6 of a 7 day
Speaker:Trist: in a row show of two shows a day, your energy might be at a
Speaker:Trist: place that man, I just need to work on my technique and make
Speaker:Trist: sure I can deliver this song.
Speaker:Trist: Even though you might not be
Speaker:Trist: quote unquote, putting your all
Speaker:Trist: into it at that very moment, if
Speaker:Trist: the music that you've chosen to
Speaker:Trist: do is strong enough and good
Speaker:Trist: enough, people will still get
Speaker:Trist: the message, the story, the
Speaker:Trist: feeling, the emotion through
Speaker:Trist: that.
Speaker:Trist: Because you've chosen music that's good.
Speaker:Trist: I've definitely had shows where, at the end of the show, it's
Speaker:Trist: like, wow, I don't even remember singing that song tonight.
Speaker:Trist: And someone comes up and
Speaker:Trist: mentions that it was incredible
Speaker:Trist: and that's the best they ever
Speaker:Trist: heard it.
Speaker:Trist: And then back in my head, I was
Speaker:Trist: like, oh, I forgot we did that
Speaker:Trist: one.
Speaker:Trist: But yet it landed with somebody that night.
Speaker:Trist: So then, you know at least you were successful at delivering
Speaker:Trist: what you were there for.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that that really emphasizes that sense of it's
Speaker:Elaine: not just what you present, it's also how people receive music.
Speaker:Elaine: It is in some ways a very special social contract.
Speaker:Elaine: And we can't discount the value that people bring to it as being
Speaker:Elaine: an audience member, as being a listener, because everyone
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: who shows up is also going to
Speaker:Elaine: bring their own emotional state
Speaker:Elaine: and their own backgrounds as
Speaker:Elaine: well.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: You never
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: know who's going to be sobbing in row
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: four because of something that really touched their heart,
Speaker:Elaine: because of something that you might not have known about.
Speaker:Trist: And there's a cliche about people are going to hear the
Speaker:Trist: thing that they want to hear out of it so
Speaker:Elaine: Or that they need to hear.
Speaker:Trist: or
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: that they need to hear, they'll get what they're looking for,
Speaker:Trist: even if that's not really what you considered to be the intent
Speaker:Trist: or the message.
Speaker:Trist: If that's what's working for
Speaker:Trist: them, then I think that's a
Speaker:Trist: success.
Speaker:Elaine: So what would you say to these
Speaker:Elaine: gentlemen if they were actually
Speaker:Elaine: listening, which I'm pretty sure
Speaker:Elaine: they're not?
Speaker:Trist: I guess every situation is different.
Speaker:Trist: Is it just venting a frustration?
Speaker:Trist: But is it driving you nuts to the point that you need to
Speaker:Trist: decide to change something?
Speaker:Trist: Or can you just intellectualize: No.
Speaker:Trist: I love doing this, but doing this other thing allows me to do
Speaker:Trist: that thing that I love.
Speaker:Trist: So, every situation is different.
Speaker:Elaine: I do wonder about, there are
Speaker:Elaine: jobs out there that might feel
Speaker:Elaine: soul sucking.
Speaker:Elaine: I find that the time that I'm the most dissatisfied is when I
Speaker:Elaine: don't feel like my creative tank is being filled.
Speaker:Elaine: For some people, it might be frustrating because they have
Speaker:Elaine: other things that are demanding on their time, whether it is
Speaker:Elaine: family or things that they know that they're obligations.
Speaker:Elaine: And so they feel resentment
Speaker:Elaine: against work because they don't
Speaker:Elaine: have the time for the type of
Speaker:Elaine: music that they want to be able
Speaker:Elaine: to do.
Speaker:Elaine: It's hard to say, because I think there are a lot of things
Speaker:Elaine: driving that sentiment and the feeling is valid.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that I've just made peace with it personally.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, anything else to add on to this before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: That is it.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. So with that, we are going to ask you a big favor.
Speaker:Elaine: Please share a playlist.
Speaker:Elaine: We have playlists.
Speaker:Trist: Yes. Please let your friends,
Speaker:Trist: family know about the podcast
Speaker:Trist: and, sure, maybe share an
Speaker:Trist: episode that really connected
Speaker:Trist: with you.
Speaker:Trist: That's cool.
Speaker:Trist: But, we found even more
Speaker:Trist: effective to share the
Speaker:Trist: playlists.
Speaker:Trist: We've made playlists of just the
Speaker:Trist: songs, and it's kind of cool if
Speaker:Trist: you want to just listen to the
Speaker:Trist: songs and maybe one of the songs
Speaker:Trist: hits them.
Speaker:Trist: It's different than what they've heard before.
Speaker:Trist: They don't know anything about
Speaker:Trist: this artist that you've shared
Speaker:Trist: with them that's in our diverse,
Speaker:Trist: eclectic playlist.
Speaker:Trist: And then they want to find out
Speaker:Trist: more, then they can come to the
Speaker:Trist: matching episode that we babble
Speaker:Trist: on about.
Speaker:Elaine: This is episode 5, and so we'll have five on the playlist.
Speaker:Elaine: We also have Season 1, which has 31 songs on it.
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Mm!
Speaker:Elaine: please do share either one of them.
Speaker:Elaine: We would love to have your support and have other people
Speaker:Elaine: join our community.
Speaker:Trist: They make good road trip
Speaker:Trist: playlist, so check them out that
Speaker:Trist: way.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, we will see you next week.
Speaker:Elaine: Thanks for joining us.
Speaker:Trist: See ya.
Speaker:Trist: Nailed it.
Speaker:Elaine: My mouth does not work right right now.
Speaker:Trist: Diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle
Speaker:Elaine: Well
Speaker:Trist: diddle
Speaker:Elaine: you
Speaker:Trist: diddle
Speaker:Elaine: saw.
Speaker:Trist: diddle.
Speaker:Elaine: one of I can't pronounce things.
Speaker:Trist: What's gonna happen?
Speaker:Elaine: Can you still hear me?
