First takes, career evolutions, and a message of hope: There Is Always One More Time (Harry Connick, Jr.)
Discover a hidden gem from Harry Connick Jr. as Trist and Elaine review "There Is Always One More Time," a soulful duet featuring the late Reverend James Moore. In this episode, they explore the song's likely spontaneous recording process, the emotional impact of knowing about Moore's passing before the song’s release, and the unique chemistry between the two artists. Listeners will appreciate insights into the song's structure, its message of hope and community, and the broader context of Connick's prolific career.
In the Mailbag segment, Elaine and Trist tackle a question from Threads about the most dreaded tasks in audio mixing, sharing their personal experiences with tuning vocals, cleaning up poorly recorded tracks, and the challenges of miking instruments. Their candid conversation offers practical advice for both aspiring and seasoned musicians, emphasizing the importance of experimentation, learning from experts, and developing a critical ear for both live and studio settings.
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://youtu.be/h3Abokc5Ygw?si=zv-rUh4LtaIDNrW1
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/7vm1z2DxBWRZSmrurSxHWJ?si=a6e04186b8034ce2
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/there-is-always-one-more-time/190447183
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B00136LSUQ?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_D1vgAG24HZD2V69kmWqQAK86v&trackAsin=B00136O3KI
Other links
- Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4uCOVpr4NcWT5SGWlZEnnw?si=8j8p7QwlQxmTNNFwFMvCeg
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-reviewed-on-the-musicians-loupe/pl.u-V9D7maah06JNo
- Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/3b47be4937b7490982f4a872db32ec8dsune?ref=dm_sh_AEFZY8KhvSsz1TGoRmasg6zHZ
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Elaine, this week, we have got
Speaker:Trist: the multi-talented Harry
Speaker:Trist: Connick, Jr.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh!
Speaker:Trist: So, as is the way of The Musician's Loupe podcast,
Speaker:Trist: anything that the listener may have thought of when I just said
Speaker:Trist: we were doing Harry Connick, Jr. this week, just about any song
Speaker:Trist: that just popped up into your head is not the one we're going
Speaker:Trist: to listen to, which is kind of how we roll here.
Speaker:Trist: We do the not famous songs.
Speaker:Trist: Anyway, this comes from an album of his called "30" that he
Speaker:Trist: recorded when he was the age of thirty, which is the case, I
Speaker:Trist: believe he has a "25" and a "20," and even an "11" from when
Speaker:Trist: he was a little kid.
Speaker:Elaine: Hm!
Speaker:Trist: So this song, it's a Doc Pomus co-write called, "There Is
Speaker:Trist: Always One More Time."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: You're right.
Speaker:Elaine: I've never heard of this one.
Speaker:Elaine: But as we get into it, can you remind us how we should be
Speaker:Elaine: listening to music as a part of The Musician's Loupe community?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, what we like to do is just to promote the idea that, hey,
Speaker:Trist: here's a time to stop, just take a little extra moment, and
Speaker:Trist: indulge yourself in a little better listening environment.
Speaker:Trist: Or at least don't just put it on
Speaker:Trist: while you're doing something
Speaker:Trist: else.
Speaker:Trist: Again, we're always thrilled to
Speaker:Trist: have you, even if you're out for
Speaker:Trist: a walk or doing chores or
Speaker:Trist: whatever.
Speaker:Trist: We're glad to have you.
Speaker:Trist: But if you have the ability to
Speaker:Trist: just stop, listen on the best
Speaker:Trist: listening situation you can put
Speaker:Trist: yourself in.
Speaker:Trist: Please do that now.
Speaker:Elaine: So we're going to leave the
Speaker:Elaine: links to the songs in the show
Speaker:Elaine: notes, and we will be right
Speaker:Elaine: back.
Speaker:Elaine: And we're back.
Speaker:Elaine: And let me tell you, I have some friends who would say, oh, man.
Speaker:Elaine: Harry Connick, Jr. took us to church, you know?
Speaker:Trist: Indeed.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, tell me a little bit more about the song.
Speaker:Trist: Well, literally had the Reverend James Moore, playing the organ
Speaker:Trist: and singing the other vocal.
Speaker:Trist: I couldn't find the story that I feel like I read at some point
Speaker:Trist: after this came out.
Speaker:Trist: These epic stories happen about, oh, you know, they didn't even
Speaker:Trist: know they were recording and they just walked in and picked
Speaker:Trist: up instruments and made that hit song, or things like that.
Speaker:Trist: Or he recorded it while he was in the bathroom.
Speaker:Trist: There's always these stories that grow and grow.
Speaker:Trist: But I feel like I read this was a first take almost just, hey,
Speaker:Trist: let's try this out.
Speaker:Trist: And it was just so amazing.
Speaker:Trist: And obviously it's, I think really moving.
Speaker:Trist: And, that's either a first take or something along those lines.
Speaker:Trist: About him, even as well established as he is, he was
Speaker:Trist: nervous, because he really respected this man.
Speaker:Trist: And the other thing that I'll
Speaker:Trist: add about it is it is the case
Speaker:Trist: that the Reverend James Moore,
Speaker:Trist: who again sang the duet and
Speaker:Trist: played organ on it, never heard
Speaker:Trist: this come out because he passed
Speaker:Trist: away before the album was even
Speaker:Trist: released.
Speaker:Trist: (Mm!) So it's kind of the last thing he recorded.
Speaker:Trist: Which is interesting, if you
Speaker:Trist: know that fact and listen to it
Speaker:Trist: again, is there something more
Speaker:Trist: that our brain puts into it
Speaker:Trist: knowing that that situation
Speaker:Trist: exists?
Speaker:Trist: I knew that, I think, right about the time I listened to it.
Speaker:Trist: So I don't recall a time where I
Speaker:Trist: heard this song without knowing
Speaker:Trist: that information.
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: hard to check that in, but maybe
Speaker:Trist: it's more moving to me because
Speaker:Trist: of that.
Speaker:Trist: I'm not sure.
Speaker:Trist: I just think it's a great song anyway.
Speaker:Trist: And just the two of them.
Speaker:Trist: I'm curious about your thoughts in your first listen.
Speaker:Elaine: It was very different than what
Speaker:Elaine: we've done before, just in
Speaker:Elaine: general, because it was less
Speaker:Elaine: about instruments and voice and
Speaker:Elaine: more kind of like what I'm used
Speaker:Elaine: to, which is like instruments
Speaker:Elaine: and voice together, in terms of
Speaker:Elaine: like, it wasn't a very strict
Speaker:Elaine: arrangement.
Speaker:Elaine: It felt like it was a lot more extemporaneous from that manner.
Speaker:Elaine: So I think what you were sharing totally makes sense.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was wondering as I was listening to it, are they
Speaker:Elaine: actually playing and singing at the same time?
Speaker:Elaine: The way that I would play an instrument and sing at the same
Speaker:Elaine: time or not.
Speaker:Elaine: And from what you just shared, I think the answer is yes.
Speaker:Elaine: Like this is a live take.
Speaker:Elaine: This is something between the two of them.
Speaker:Elaine: There was obviously some chemistry.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there was also in that the second half of the
Speaker:Elaine: song, there was this call and response as they were basically
Speaker:Elaine: singing the same things, but riffing off of one another.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, and then they switched in the middle.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it was like Harry was leading first.
Speaker:Elaine: And then, Reverend Moore was repeating that.
Speaker:Elaine: So kind of a call and response thing.
Speaker:Elaine: And then it switched in the
Speaker:Elaine: middle and then it switched
Speaker:Elaine: back.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I wondered how much of that was planned versus organic.
Speaker:Elaine: And also there was just a lot of playfulness in there, especially
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: there was somewhere I had, I
Speaker:Elaine: think written it down in the
Speaker:Elaine: notes somewhere.
Speaker:Elaine: In the second stanza, I guess of the second half.
Speaker:Elaine: And so this is when they're playing this call and response,
Speaker:Elaine: there is a moment where they just go into different parts of
Speaker:Elaine: their voices and you could just hear, oh yeah, they're like
Speaker:Elaine: joking around because like it's going into a different placement
Speaker:Elaine: that is kind of silly.
Speaker:Elaine: And I have been in those
Speaker:Elaine: situations where people are just
Speaker:Elaine: goofing around with their voice
Speaker:Elaine: and it just sounds like, oh
Speaker:Elaine: yeah, hahaha.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, I'm
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: doing this kind of thing and it
Speaker:Elaine: just sounded like so much fun
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think one of the things
Speaker:Elaine: just hearing about Reverend
Speaker:Elaine: Moore's passing before he got to
Speaker:Elaine: hear this release, in some ways
Speaker:Elaine: is kind of like a voice from the
Speaker:Elaine: past or,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: you know, a voice from beyond.
Speaker:Elaine: But in the moment, he must have
Speaker:Elaine: felt like a certain amount of
Speaker:Elaine: joy playing.
Speaker:Elaine: As we were saying last week
Speaker:Elaine: about playing with people who
Speaker:Elaine: are better than you are or
Speaker:Elaine: playing with people at the top
Speaker:Elaine: of their field, having the sense
Speaker:Elaine: of like, oh yeah, this is just
Speaker:Elaine: so much fun because I get to
Speaker:Elaine: have people to play with who are
Speaker:Elaine: just amazing.
Speaker:Trist: I think those things you mentioned lead me to believe
Speaker:Trist: whatever story that I feel like I read somewhere – man, I wish I
Speaker:Trist: could find that – that I feel like I heard about it kind of
Speaker:Trist: being an "Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Hey, nice to meet.
Speaker:Trist: Hey, man.
Speaker:Trist: So, pleasure to meet you.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, let's do this."
Speaker:Trist: They knew they were going to do it, so they both kind of
Speaker:Trist: rehearsed in their own mind what they would do.
Speaker:Trist: And they knew the song.
Speaker:Trist: And in some ways it feels like,
Speaker:Trist: well, they must have at least
Speaker:Trist: talked about like, okay, you
Speaker:Trist: sing the lead, then I'll sing
Speaker:Trist: the lead.
Speaker:Trist: But that could very naturally just happen that way, just look
Speaker:Trist: at each other like, okay, now you're going to do this one and
Speaker:Trist: then trading it off.
Speaker:Trist: The ending doesn't feel like completely arranged.
Speaker:Trist: As musical as even just Harry is.
Speaker:Trist: If there was a lot of thought,
Speaker:Trist: no, this is going to be the
Speaker:Trist: ending.
Speaker:Trist: You usually have a more defined.
Speaker:Trist: It makes the way there, like two
Speaker:Trist: musicians "Oh, what do you want
Speaker:Trist: to do?
Speaker:Trist: Well, what do you want to do?
Speaker:Trist: I don't know."
Speaker:Trist: It's like, it just kind of makes
Speaker:Trist: its way to the end rather than
Speaker:Trist: having a defined, like even at
Speaker:Trist: the end, just, hey, let's do
Speaker:Trist: this chord and this chord to end
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Trist: It feels like they didn't even do that.
Speaker:Trist: So I don't know, maybe for those
Speaker:Trist: of you who listen to it again,
Speaker:Trist: see if you feel that freedom in
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Trist: And honestly, even if it's literally the second take or the
Speaker:Trist: third take, whatever, it has the feeling of just sitting down
Speaker:Trist: with a friend, someone you look up to, and can't believe you get
Speaker:Trist: to do this great song with.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, one of the things that I was reading about Reverend
Speaker:Elaine: Moore, first of all, beyond his early passing was his career
Speaker:Elaine: because I actually had never heard of him before.
Speaker:Elaine: Although I listened to it.
Speaker:Elaine: I was like, oh, who's that second voice?
Speaker:Elaine: Oh my goodness.
Speaker:Trist: Such
Speaker:Elaine: This is
Speaker:Trist: an
Speaker:Elaine: amazing.
Speaker:Trist: amazing instrument,
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Trist: such a great
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: voice.
Speaker:Elaine: and so it was very surprising to me.
Speaker:Elaine: I had to find out.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was reading about his
Speaker:Elaine: career and about what he had
Speaker:Elaine: done.
Speaker:Elaine: And just like how he was known as a gospel singer.
Speaker:Elaine: And I realized then that I just don't know as much gospel.
Speaker:Elaine: I definitely am aware of this, even though I play in a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: church contexts, honestly, with people who grew up in the Black
Speaker:Elaine: church and playing a lot of gospel, just how little I know
Speaker:Elaine: of it because I was raised on more contemporary Christian
Speaker:Elaine: music as opposed to gospel music, being Asian American.
Speaker:Elaine: But one of the things that I'm very aware of is the more
Speaker:Elaine: extemporaneous styles that come from being a part of a Black
Speaker:Elaine: church in this gospel style and that it's like, hey, if the
Speaker:Elaine: Spirit moves you in a particular way, you just go, right?
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And so a lot of the musicians that I know who grew up in this
Speaker:Elaine: type of environment, they're just very aware of the people
Speaker:Elaine: they're playing with.
Speaker:Elaine: They're very aware of where the music is going.
Speaker:Elaine: They're very aware of what other
Speaker:Elaine: people are doing because it's
Speaker:Elaine: all about complementing each
Speaker:Elaine: other and
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: playing together despite there being no set plan ahead of time.
Speaker:Elaine: So I have to imagine that coming
Speaker:Elaine: from that musical tradition and
Speaker:Elaine: that musical background, that
Speaker:Elaine: the Reverend Moore probably
Speaker:Elaine: didn't have any problems with
Speaker:Elaine: that.
Speaker:Elaine: He's like, let's just wing it, and see what happens.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: Just a great combination of their two voices.
Speaker:Trist: I think it's a great duet pairing.
Speaker:Trist: I could listen to a whole album of the two of them, for sure.
Speaker:Trist: Just comes in and it's a nice voice.
Speaker:Trist: And then as his voice pops up in his upper register, kind of
Speaker:Trist: catches me by surprise, like, oh, okay, this is a
Speaker:Elaine: Which
Speaker:Trist: force.
Speaker:Elaine: singer are you talking about?
Speaker:Trist: Uh, I'm talking about the Reverend.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. The first time I heard this, that's the first time I
Speaker:Trist: heard him as well.
Speaker:Trist: I also did not know of his career and of his music.
Speaker:Trist: So I knew what Harry sounded like when I first heard this.
Speaker:Trist: But upon the first hearing, just
Speaker:Trist: hearing that voice, I was like,
Speaker:Trist: okay, I definitely paid
Speaker:Trist: attention.
Speaker:Trist: Not to mention the song, a
Speaker:Trist: co-writer, Doc Pomus, really
Speaker:Trist: successful songwriter, probably
Speaker:Trist: most well known for co-writes
Speaker:Trist: for the Drifters, "Save the Last
Speaker:Trist: Dance for Me," "This Magic
Speaker:Trist: Moment,"
Speaker:Elaine: Oh,
Speaker:Trist: kind
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: of some
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: classic,
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: like some classics.
Speaker:Trist: Those are the ones I can
Speaker:Trist: remember, uh, right off the top
Speaker:Trist: of my head, but a big catalogue
Speaker:Trist: of songs that he was a writer or
Speaker:Trist: co-writer on.
Speaker:Trist: So it didn't surprise me that
Speaker:Trist: this was a co-write of his
Speaker:Trist: because, yeah, really good
Speaker:Trist: tunes.
Speaker:Elaine: Hm. So tell me a little bit more about why you chose this song,
Speaker:Elaine: as opposed to any of the other ones that Harry Connick Jr has
Speaker:Elaine: done, because he's
Speaker:Trist: Uh,
Speaker:Elaine: rather prolific, right?
Speaker:Trist: Sure. Again, just for something different.
Speaker:Trist: having this duet, having people
Speaker:Trist: be able to hear this other
Speaker:Trist: voice, the Reverend Moore,
Speaker:Trist: again, that I had never heard
Speaker:Trist: of.
Speaker:Trist: So to share his sound as well.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think the simplicity of it because in looking at this,
Speaker:Trist: I'm realizing, wow, Harry's recorded like thirty albums.
Speaker:Trist: That's amazing to me that he's
Speaker:Trist: been so prolific and done so
Speaker:Trist: many different things, including
Speaker:Trist: Broadway shows.
Speaker:Trist: And, he's got holiday albums and he's got pop and funk albums and
Speaker:Trist: straight ahead big band jazz albums and all kinds of things.
Speaker:Trist: Just straight ahead jazz piano playing.
Speaker:Trist: So this is just something different.
Speaker:Trist: Like I mentioned in the lede
Speaker:Trist: there, kind of do Harry Connick
Speaker:Trist: Jr., and it's not going to be
Speaker:Trist: anything that you're probably
Speaker:Trist: expecting.
Speaker:Trist: So that's why, and I just like the simplicity of the song and
Speaker:Trist: of the two of them together, I feel like I'm right there with
Speaker:Trist: them as they're creating it.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, this one was also very
Speaker:Elaine: interesting to me in terms of
Speaker:Elaine: just its sheer construction,
Speaker:Elaine: because on the one hand it
Speaker:Elaine: repeats, but none of the words
Speaker:Elaine: repeat, right?
Speaker:Elaine: We don't have a classic chorus.
Speaker:Elaine: We don't have anything really besides like this one musical
Speaker:Elaine: thought that goes.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, it just continues.
Speaker:Elaine: But it goes with the lyrics in some ways.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think it was one of those
Speaker:Elaine: things where, as I was trying to
Speaker:Elaine: look at the lyrics and say like,
Speaker:Elaine: okay, well, how do they fit
Speaker:Elaine: together?
Speaker:Elaine: And of course, it's a narrative.
Speaker:Elaine: It is a story that goes through the entire thing.
Speaker:Elaine: But it was not the same kind of
Speaker:Elaine: structure that I would expect
Speaker:Elaine: out of like a hymn or any type
Speaker:Elaine: of pop song or any other kind of
Speaker:Elaine: contemporary song that we've
Speaker:Elaine: heard.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: It's just like it just keeps on going.
Speaker:Elaine: And in some ways, it reminds me a little bit of one of the
Speaker:Elaine: Stevie Wonder songs that we covered, which just kept on
Speaker:Elaine: going in different places.
Speaker:Elaine: And it
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: was like, okay, it totally made sense.
Speaker:Elaine: But, it wasn't like a whole lot repeated.
Speaker:Elaine: It
Speaker:Trist: It's
Speaker:Elaine: just just
Speaker:Trist: yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: kept on going, right?
Speaker:Trist: it's not necessarily storytelling.
Speaker:Trist: It's just different versions of "don't give up."
Speaker:Trist: It's just different versions of that.
Speaker:Trist: Literally, the message is the title.
Speaker:Elaine: But musically, it does go different places, Like the
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: first
Speaker:Trist: No, no, I
Speaker:Elaine: two.
Speaker:Trist: just mean
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah,
Speaker:Trist: I'm
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Trist: mostly just talking about the general gist of it.
Speaker:Trist: You're not telling
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, right.
Speaker:Trist: it through the eyes of a people.
Speaker:Trist: It's not a love song, etc.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: like the main theme that you get is this one thing.
Speaker:Trist: And yeah, they say it a lot of different ways.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, I think that I agree with you there.
Speaker:Elaine: I was just trying to say that from a construction or a
Speaker:Elaine: structural perspective, it's just not what I expected out of
Speaker:Elaine: Harry Connick Jr., or even out of a church song, which
Speaker:Elaine: generally is a lot more repetitive in that case.
Speaker:Trist: Is there anything about the lyrics that stood out to you?
Speaker:Trist: Do you have a favorite
Speaker:Elaine: Oh!
Speaker:Trist: lyric?
Speaker:Elaine: do I have a you know, I think that for me, there was just like
Speaker:Elaine: this message of hope that just kept on going and going.
Speaker:Elaine: But
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: near the end of the song, it does talk about if there's a
Speaker:Elaine: better heart out there looking for someone to share and then a
Speaker:Elaine: couple lines down.
Speaker:Elaine: And if we meet someday, please don't walk away.
Speaker:Elaine: And there's this sense of, not
Speaker:Elaine: just individual hope, but this
Speaker:Elaine: relational aspect of it where,
Speaker:Elaine: they're singing about us being
Speaker:Elaine: together, us being community, us
Speaker:Elaine: being friends.
Speaker:Elaine: And I thought that was just a
Speaker:Elaine: really beautiful place to end
Speaker:Elaine: this song, in thinking not just
Speaker:Elaine: about, you think things are bad
Speaker:Elaine: now?
Speaker:Elaine: Things will be better, but it's
Speaker:Elaine: more this space of, we need to
Speaker:Elaine: be together to be able to turn
Speaker:Elaine: this around.
Speaker:Elaine: Don't turn me away because
Speaker:Elaine: community is such an important
Speaker:Elaine: part of our lived experience
Speaker:Elaine: together.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: so I just thought that that was beautiful.
Speaker:Elaine: Just a constant reminder how much community matters.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that in a hyper
Speaker:Elaine: individualistic society, we just
Speaker:Elaine: need these reminders all the
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Trist: Indeed.
Speaker:Elaine: So yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: What about you?
Speaker:Elaine: Was
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: there anything that
Speaker:Trist: I
Speaker:Elaine: stuck out
Speaker:Trist: think
Speaker:Elaine: to you?
Speaker:Trist: the first listen, the stanza that caught me is, "Turning
Speaker:Trist: corners is only a state of mind / Keeping your eyes closed is
Speaker:Trist: worse than being blind."
Speaker:Elaine: Hm.
Speaker:Trist: I
Speaker:Elaine: How come?
Speaker:Trist: love that lyric.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: "Keeping
Speaker:Elaine: Tell me a
Speaker:Trist: your
Speaker:Elaine: little
Speaker:Trist: eyes
Speaker:Elaine: bit
Speaker:Trist: closed
Speaker:Elaine: more.
Speaker:Trist: is worse than being blind."
Speaker:Trist: Like when you choose not to see the path in front of you, you
Speaker:Trist: make a choice.
Speaker:Trist: Or it could be talking about whatever.
Speaker:Trist: There's that ugly thing in front of you.
Speaker:Trist: If you're actually blind to it, that's not your doing.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Like if I'm truly blind to this,
Speaker:Trist: this abuse, this sadness, this
Speaker:Trist: racism, whatever,
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: I'm blind to it.
Speaker:Trist: Keeping your eyes closed, so you making the choice not to see it
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: is worse than
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, yeah,
Speaker:Trist: being blind.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: It's
Speaker:Trist: Keeping
Speaker:Elaine: like this
Speaker:Trist: your
Speaker:Elaine: willfulness.
Speaker:Trist: eyes closed.
Speaker:Trist: Worse
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah,
Speaker:Trist: than being blind.
Speaker:Elaine: I like that.
Speaker:Trist: Like, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Being blind.
Speaker:Trist: You think about how terrible that would be.
Speaker:Trist: But it's worse to be sighted and not, quote unquote, see the
Speaker:Trist: things that you should see
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: or however many different ways you can twist those lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: I like the whole stanza, but
Speaker:Trist: especially that keeping your
Speaker:Trist: eyes closed is worse than being
Speaker:Trist: blind.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: The very first listen, I still recall that in all of their
Speaker:Trist: amazing musical things, which is rare for me because I'm usually
Speaker:Trist: caught up in oh, the cool chord and the cool lick and how cool
Speaker:Trist: their voices sound together, and someone singing a cool harmony.
Speaker:Trist: And I'm usually into that first,
Speaker:Trist: but I very clearly heard that
Speaker:Trist: line from the very first listen,
Speaker:Trist: and I always thought it was
Speaker:Trist: really cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, it's amazing that even in a song with so few words,
Speaker:Elaine: because we've definitely reviewed songs with a lot more
Speaker:Elaine: words than this,
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: it still managed to strike some really core truths of our lived
Speaker:Elaine: experience as humans.
Speaker:Elaine: So yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Amazing song.
Speaker:Elaine: Anything else that you want to
Speaker:Elaine: say about this before we wrap
Speaker:Elaine: up?
Speaker:Trist: I mean, that's it.
Speaker:Trist: Just another example of you hear an artist and you have a certain
Speaker:Trist: idea about them, what they do, what they are, what they sound
Speaker:Trist: like, what they've contributed to the world, and really so many
Speaker:Trist: of the great ones have contributed and done so many
Speaker:Trist: more things than you might know.
Speaker:Trist: So it's always worth digging and finding the variety.
Speaker:Elaine: And I know that you had
Speaker:Elaine: mentioned, maybe before we got
Speaker:Elaine: started, that Harry Connick Jr.
Speaker:Elaine: is actually a very talented
Speaker:Elaine: pianist.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Mm!
Speaker:Elaine: that was actually something that I wasn't aware of
Speaker:Trist: Ah!
Speaker:Elaine: before listening to this.
Speaker:Elaine: And then when I was reading underneath – and I was trying to
Speaker:Elaine: figure out who the second singer was – but I read oh, piano by
Speaker:Elaine: Harry Connick Jr., and the keys by the same person who was
Speaker:Elaine: singing the second, like the
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Reverend
Speaker:Trist: The
Speaker:Elaine: James
Speaker:Trist: organ.
Speaker:Elaine: Moore.
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And the organ was being played by the second singer
Speaker:Elaine: like, whoa- whoa.
Speaker:Elaine: And it even blows my mind because I play both of them.
Speaker:Elaine: I
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: play a keyed instrument and I
Speaker:Elaine: sing at the same time, and it's
Speaker:Elaine: hard.
Speaker:Elaine: I think about what these two men are doing while playing live.
Speaker:Elaine: And it just gives me so much more respect for both of them as
Speaker:Elaine: musicians and also as vocalists.
Speaker:Trist: The thing with Harry Connick, I think, that gets lost.
Speaker:Trist: He's a piano player first, as a kid and as he was coming up,
Speaker:Trist: very first album on Columbia Records, I'm pretty sure is just
Speaker:Trist: a self-titled album.
Speaker:Trist: And it's instrumental.
Speaker:Trist: He doesn't sing at all on it.
Speaker:Trist: I believe the story goes his
Speaker:Trist: manager at the time would hear
Speaker:Trist: him in live concerts, doing his
Speaker:Trist: piano solos, and he would sing
Speaker:Trist: occasionally just to break up
Speaker:Trist: the monotony of the piano
Speaker:Trist: performances.
Speaker:Trist: And a very wise manager was
Speaker:Trist: like, you know, you should maybe
Speaker:Trist: add even more singing to your
Speaker:Trist: repertoire.
Speaker:Trist: Um, so even the second album,
Speaker:Trist: it's a rhythm section album,
Speaker:Trist: some piano solo, I think, and
Speaker:Trist: piano trio.
Speaker:Trist: And fewer than half of the songs
Speaker:Trist: have him singing even on his
Speaker:Trist: second album.
Speaker:Trist: So it's kind of a gradual thing.
Speaker:Trist: In my mind, because I know him from then, to hear you even say,
Speaker:Trist: oh, he plays the piano.
Speaker:Trist: And in my mind I'm like, what do you mean?
Speaker:Trist: Of course, that's what he does.
Speaker:Trist: But you know that happens.
Speaker:Trist: And this is also what I'm
Speaker:Trist: getting at in terms of, if you
Speaker:Trist: like something about a
Speaker:Trist: particular musician, check out
Speaker:Trist: more about them, see where they
Speaker:Trist: came from.
Speaker:Trist: Kind of a parallel, I think, to Nat King Cole.
Speaker:Trist: When you mention Nat King Cole,
Speaker:Trist: right away, you think of "The
Speaker:Trist: Christmas Song," and any other
Speaker:Trist: songs, any other standards that
Speaker:Trist: you know of that you think of
Speaker:Trist: his voice with certain standard
Speaker:Trist: jazz and popular songs of the
Speaker:Trist: time,
Speaker:Elaine: "Unforgettable."
Speaker:Trist: but he same,
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: same way.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. But he started out as just a piano player,
Speaker:Elaine: Mm.
Speaker:Trist: an incredible piano player.
Speaker:Trist: I think that gets lost for him.
Speaker:Trist: So I think that's where the parallel is for me is: more well
Speaker:Trist: known for other things.
Speaker:Trist: And even Harry, again, with the
Speaker:Trist: acting and being in movies and
Speaker:Trist: TV shows and a judge on shows
Speaker:Trist: and just so many different
Speaker:Trist: things that people might know
Speaker:Trist: him for.
Speaker:Trist: And yet his rise to everything was playing the piano and
Speaker:Trist: singing jazz and show tunes.
Speaker:Elaine: What a special track and what a
Speaker:Elaine: great reminder of just what
Speaker:Elaine: talents people have that we
Speaker:Elaine: don't necessarily remember from
Speaker:Elaine: their reputations.
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Elaine: All right, well, with that, we're going to switch gears and
Speaker:Elaine: move into our...
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right. The Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: And if you would like to get a hold of us, you can email us at
Speaker:Elaine: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com, that's L o u p e, or you can
Speaker:Elaine: reach us at that same thing, @themusiciansloupe at either
Speaker:Elaine: Threads or Instagram.
Speaker:Trist: And that's a place where you can let us know any questions you
Speaker:Trist: might have or additional comments, if we were pondering
Speaker:Trist: about something, or maybe got our facts not quite straight – and
Speaker:Trist: you want to set us straight – that would be great. We'd
Speaker:Trist: love to hear from you on any
Speaker:Trist: thoughts about any of the episodes.
Speaker:Trist: Please
Speaker:Trist: let us know.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so this week comes from Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: One of our favorite places is Musicians on Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: And this is from J H Ross from April of 2026.
Speaker:Elaine: And this one I pulled because it
Speaker:Elaine: is actually not a typical topic
Speaker:Elaine: that we talk about, but one that
Speaker:Elaine: I think is interesting to both
Speaker:Elaine: of us.
Speaker:Elaine: So he writes, "Audio engineers:
Speaker:Elaine: I know we all love mixing, but
Speaker:Elaine: what's the one thing you have to
Speaker:Elaine: clean up in a mix you just never
Speaker:Elaine: look forward to?" And he
Speaker:Elaine: continues, "It's high frequency
Speaker:Elaine: vocals for me, like nasally
Speaker:Elaine: tones.
Speaker:Elaine: No matter how clean I get it, I can still hear it.
Speaker:Elaine: I can never unhear it."
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Oh that's wild.
Speaker:Elaine: yeah,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: so I'd love to hear that from
Speaker:Elaine: your perspective, because you've
Speaker:Elaine: had so much experience doing
Speaker:Elaine: both front of house as well as
Speaker:Elaine: the mixing and mastering for
Speaker:Elaine: recorded music.
Speaker:Trist: So having done a lot of that, I'm actually curious to know
Speaker:Trist: from you first in whatever experiences you've had in that.
Speaker:Trist: What about yours?
Speaker:Trist: I want to hear yours first.
Speaker:Elaine: Ah, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: So if I'm doing myself, I am such a perfectionist when it
Speaker:Elaine: comes to my own voice and the tuning of my own voice, that it
Speaker:Elaine: is really hard for me to listen to anything else signal
Speaker:Elaine: strength, whatever it is.
Speaker:Elaine: If I'm distracted by me being out of tune or me being off in
Speaker:Elaine: some way that I think that I should be on.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, I actually don't do a
Speaker:Elaine: ton of mixing of people outside
Speaker:Elaine: of myself because of just my
Speaker:Elaine: limits.
Speaker:Elaine: But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly being out of tune is
Speaker:Elaine: like one of the biggest ones for
Speaker:Elaine: me.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, because I know I'm just like, oh, if I fix it, it's
Speaker:Elaine: going to sound weird and it's going to sound like, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: there are micro tuning things that you can do.
Speaker:Elaine: But at the same time, I want everything to sound natural.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't want it to sound like I
Speaker:Elaine: really have tuned myself in
Speaker:Elaine: post-production.
Speaker:Trist: I get that.
Speaker:Trist: I think every mix is different,
Speaker:Trist: probably the two main things I
Speaker:Trist: can think of that I would not
Speaker:Trist: look forward to, is just trying
Speaker:Trist: to fix things that are poorly
Speaker:Trist: recorded.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, wow.
Speaker:Trist: The microphone that they recorded that into just picked
Speaker:Trist: up a lot of the room."
Speaker:Trist: Or I can hear that there's a fan on.
Speaker:Trist: Or I can hear that they were in
Speaker:Trist: their bedroom and a siren went
Speaker:Trist: by.
Speaker:Trist: Just cleaning up things that shouldn't be there.
Speaker:Trist: It's already one thing that you're there to take all the
Speaker:Trist: musical elements and put them in the right place and shine them
Speaker:Trist: up and make them all live where they're supposed to live.
Speaker:Trist: But when there are things there that weren't intended, lip
Speaker:Trist: smacks or whatever, like literally clean up the spaces.
Speaker:Trist: So singers clearing their throats just before they sing
Speaker:Trist: and it's still on the take.
Speaker:Trist: And so you need to go clean all of that stuff out.
Speaker:Trist: I don't look forward to that.
Speaker:Trist: And then the other thing would be just
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: probably extremely out of tune.
Speaker:Trist: So same as what you said, but just even with other people
Speaker:Trist: extremely out of tune vocals.
Speaker:Trist: I don't like to tune them to the hilt, but things where it's
Speaker:Trist: like, wow, you can barely listen to the whole thing.
Speaker:Trist: Every single phrase has two or three spots where you need to
Speaker:Trist: adjust and not just little bits where you have to like almost
Speaker:Trist: massively re do it for them.
Speaker:Trist: Those are the things I do not look forward to.
Speaker:Elaine: And I wonder how much of that is
Speaker:Elaine: because we're such precise
Speaker:Elaine: singers, have done such tight
Speaker:Elaine: harmony stuff.
Speaker:Elaine: I remember this gig that I did probably 25 years ago at this
Speaker:Elaine: point in time.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was a hip hop gig and I was out there beatboxing behind
Speaker:Elaine: a spoken word artist.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was more of a variety show, so they had put together
Speaker:Elaine: four or five different artists.
Speaker:Elaine: I had bumped into a friend of mine from college there and I
Speaker:Elaine: was like, oh, how's it going?
Speaker:Elaine: And he was saying, oh, wasn't this one vocalist amazing?
Speaker:Elaine: I'm like, are you kidding me?
Speaker:Elaine: My ears were bleeding because she was so out of tune.
Speaker:Elaine: He's like, oh
Speaker:Trist: Um.
Speaker:Elaine: yeah, I can fix all that in post.
Speaker:Elaine: But like the quality of her voice.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm like, I don't know what
Speaker:Elaine: you think you're going to be
Speaker:Elaine: able to do in post with this,
Speaker:Elaine: bud.
Speaker:Elaine: But this is not something that is salvageable.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Uh.
Speaker:Elaine: so it was just an interesting difference of opinion.
Speaker:Elaine: For him, he was like, oh, I can
Speaker:Elaine: do whatever I want in terms of
Speaker:Elaine: tuning, but I can't do anything
Speaker:Elaine: with placement.
Speaker:Elaine: And the placement of her voice
Speaker:Elaine: was better to him than her being
Speaker:Elaine: in tune.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I just thought it was an interesting perspective to have.
Speaker:Trist: I think the question we're
Speaker:Trist: thinking mostly of studio
Speaker:Trist: recording.
Speaker:Trist: I think mixing live, the thing that I don't look forward to is
Speaker:Trist: lots of noises getting into places I don't want them.
Speaker:Trist: So, a really quiet singer in front of a really loud band
Speaker:Trist: where, you're constantly trying to get that mic opened up to
Speaker:Trist: take in whatever little the vocalist is putting in and then
Speaker:Trist: of course, capturing all of the band and all of the loud sounds
Speaker:Trist: around it, lots of crazy tools to help that these days.
Speaker:Trist: But there aren't really too many
Speaker:Trist: things like that that I quote
Speaker:Trist: unquote never look forward to
Speaker:Trist: live.
Speaker:Trist: It'd be more studio related.
Speaker:Elaine: So what about the capture of an instrument?
Speaker:Elaine: Because one of the things that I
Speaker:Elaine: had really struggled with
Speaker:Elaine: previously was properly miking a
Speaker:Elaine: cajon because I was playing a
Speaker:Elaine: cajon.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: man, every time I did it, it
Speaker:Elaine: just sounded a little bit off
Speaker:Elaine: because I don't think I had the
Speaker:Elaine: placement quite right for the
Speaker:Elaine: microphones.
Speaker:Elaine: And,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: I know that for drums, for
Speaker:Elaine: instance, just the wrong angle
Speaker:Elaine: on a mic can totally mess things
Speaker:Elaine: up.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm kind of curious about how you feel about that.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that something that you find frustrating or is it just like a
Speaker:Elaine: part of the job?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it top five?
Speaker:Elaine: Bottom five?
Speaker:Elaine: You don't really care about it because you mostly do vocals?
Speaker:Trist: I don't think it's necessarily frustrating.
Speaker:Trist: Obviously, if you have a
Speaker:Trist: situation where you're just not
Speaker:Trist: getting a sound that you want,
Speaker:Trist: that'd be frustrating, but I
Speaker:Trist: can't think of a time where I've
Speaker:Trist: experienced miking up whatever:
Speaker:Trist: guitar, singers, percussionists,
Speaker:Trist: drummers.
Speaker:Trist: I can't really recall the last time where I miked something up
Speaker:Trist: like that and was just significantly frustrated with
Speaker:Trist: the sound I was getting.
Speaker:Trist: Generally, I know the places
Speaker:Trist: that I feel like I want to put
Speaker:Trist: the mikes and then they work
Speaker:Trist: fine.
Speaker:Trist: So, yeah, I guess I'm maybe not too particular about that, or
Speaker:Trist: I've done it enough that I know where I like the sound.
Speaker:Trist: And unless I was really
Speaker:Trist: experimenting, wanting to try to
Speaker:Trist: get a different sound that maybe
Speaker:Trist: someone else was trying to go
Speaker:Trist: for, but I've not really
Speaker:Trist: experienced that myself too
Speaker:Trist: much.
Speaker:Elaine: I do wonder how much of my own frustration with this is just my
Speaker:Elaine: lack of experience, because I only have a certain type of
Speaker:Elaine: experience with, miking myself, miking my voice.
Speaker:Elaine: And so when it comes to something like, oh, do I dual mike
Speaker:Elaine: my guitar? Or
Speaker:Elaine: how do I make sure that my bass actually sounds good instead
Speaker:Elaine: of this flat something? That
Speaker:Elaine: is something that I feel like
Speaker:Elaine: is maybe a little more of a struggle
Speaker:Elaine: for me because I'm more of
Speaker:Elaine: a live musician than a recording
Speaker:Elaine: musician. But
Speaker:Elaine: you know, I experiment with recording. It's
Speaker:Elaine: just one of those things where I feel like maybe I'm just not
Speaker:Elaine: at the level where I can make that happen very well.
Speaker:Trist: I guess you do a lot of
Speaker:Trist: experimentation and eventually
Speaker:Trist: you kind of understand all the
Speaker:Trist: differences.
Speaker:Trist: You never totally stop experimenting.
Speaker:Trist: You're like, huh, today, let's
Speaker:Trist: maybe try one of these other
Speaker:Trist: versions that I've used before,
Speaker:Trist: even though it's not my go to,
Speaker:Trist: rather than trying like seven
Speaker:Trist: different placements and you're
Speaker:Trist: reinventing the wheel every
Speaker:Trist: time.
Speaker:Trist: So maybe I guess that's it.
Speaker:Trist: You're right.
Speaker:Trist: The experience helps that you've kind of done this before.
Speaker:Trist: So you have a general idea of what you want, what kind of mic
Speaker:Trist: you want to use and where you want it placed.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit more about what you would tell
Speaker:Elaine: someone who is just starting out in terms of how they would learn
Speaker:Elaine: how they would experiment?
Speaker:Elaine: When it's appropriate to experiment when it isn't.
Speaker:Trist: Man, these days, I suppose you
Speaker:Trist: could literally just go to
Speaker:Trist: YouTube.
Speaker:Trist: "How to amplify an acoustic guitar."
Speaker:Trist: "How to amplify an oboe."
Speaker:Trist: "How to place mics on a grand piano."
Speaker:Trist: "How to place mics on an upright piano."
Speaker:Trist: That's the starting point.
Speaker:Trist: Like, okay, there's some professional that's made some
Speaker:Trist: video and showed you what they like to do.
Speaker:Trist: And they hopefully usually tell you why.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, I put the mic here to
Speaker:Trist: capture this part of the sound
Speaker:Trist: and I use this, and then I mix
Speaker:Trist: it together and I usually do a
Speaker:Trist: little more of the low one" or
Speaker:Trist: whatever.
Speaker:Trist: That's a good place to start is
Speaker:Trist: just find out what quote unquote
Speaker:Trist: experts do.
Speaker:Trist: Then you suit to your own taste like, okay, this is what this
Speaker:Trist: person generally does.
Speaker:Trist: This is a good starting place.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, I like that sound, but I think I would like it more.
Speaker:Trist: That's what I would recommend for somebody starting out.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker:Elaine: Thanks.
Speaker:Elaine: So is there anything else that you want to say about this
Speaker:Elaine: before we wrap up for the week?
Speaker:Trist: I think that's it.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, we're going to encourage all of you to check
Speaker:Elaine: out our brand new playlist.
Speaker:Elaine: We have one that is set for Season 2.
Speaker:Trist: Season
Speaker:Elaine: We.
Speaker:Trist: two.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right, we have a separate one for Season 1.
Speaker:Elaine: So we have 31 episodes as a part of Season 1.
Speaker:Elaine: We're still growing Season 2 right now.
Speaker:Elaine: If you would like to support us, please do share that playlist or
Speaker:Elaine: any of our episodes with your friends and family.
Speaker:Trist: It's really cool to share the playlist because maybe listening
Speaker:Trist: to a music podcast isn't their thing, but you just want to
Speaker:Trist: share the songs.
Speaker:Trist: That's great.
Speaker:Trist: That's a big part of what this
Speaker:Trist: is about, just exposing you all
Speaker:Trist: to some of these different tunes
Speaker:Trist: that you may or may not have
Speaker:Trist: heard before.
Speaker:Trist: Let the person know this comes from a podcast you've been
Speaker:Trist: listening to, and if they like a particular song, they could dig
Speaker:Trist: up the episode.
Speaker:Trist: But please check out on whatever platforms you like.
Speaker:Trist: We've got them all over the
Speaker:Trist: place, find the playlist and let
Speaker:Trist: us know what you think about
Speaker:Trist: them.
Speaker:Trist: Appreciate
Speaker:Elaine: Yea,
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: thank you so much for supporting
Speaker:Elaine: us and we will see you next
Speaker:Elaine: week.
Speaker:Elaine: Let me just say that again
Speaker:Elaine: because I burped in the middle
Speaker:Elaine: of it.
Speaker:Trist: Sorry. That's not what I'm going to do.
Speaker:Elaine: Ah, man, how do I put that together?
Speaker:Elaine: How am I going to switch that?
Speaker:Trist: Okay,
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Marge.
Speaker:Elaine: we.
Speaker:Trist: This will be in the not deep category.
Speaker:Elaine: Close enough.
