Simplicity, storytelling, and a breakup averted: Never on the Day You Leave (John Mayer)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1d5c1fVxSA
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/3TQbr3G3U5wlwEJejmqC1F
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/never-on-the-day-you-leave/1224353385
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B06Y3HV2N3?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_gArDR5BzTxFt1Suiqwo03YUHf&trackAsin=B06Y3R6LPH
Other links
- “Further Notes on Scenius,” May 2017, Austin Kleon, quoting Brian Eno on the term “Scenius”
Key takeaways
- Trist and Elaine discuss the storytelling and lyrical depth of John Mayer’s song “Never on the Day You Leave,” highlighting its emotional journey and impactful outro
- The song's minimalistic instrumentation, including acoustic and clean electric elements, creates a sense of intimacy and supports the poignant lyrics, emphasizing the emotional weight of the narrative
- In the mailbag segment, Elaine and Trist emphasize the critical role of local music venues and audiences in fostering emerging artists and creating a thriving music community
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: This week, Elaine, we have the singer songwriter John Mayer.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh!
Speaker:Elaine: Contemporary.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, prolific songwriter, written a lot of songs that our
Speaker:Trist: listeners might know, but maybe you don't know this one.
Speaker:Trist: Wasn't a single, wasn't a hit of any kind that I can think of,
Speaker:Trist: although it's very catchy.
Speaker:Trist: So none of the ones you know, it's off of a more recent album.
Speaker:Trist: I believe this album is 2017-ish.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: The album, "The Search for Everything," the song is: "Never
Speaker:Trist: on the Day You Leave."
Speaker:Elaine: Hmm. Interesting. Okay!
Speaker:Elaine: So is there anything that you want to say about the song
Speaker:Elaine: before we go into it, or should we just listen to it flat?
Speaker:Trist: You know, let's just listen to it.
Speaker:Trist: There's nothing else to tell about it.
Speaker:Trist: It tells the tale itself.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. Sounds good.
Speaker:Elaine: Before we get into this and we
Speaker:Elaine: will put the links into the show
Speaker:Elaine: notes.
Speaker:Elaine: Trist, can you remind us a little bit about how we should
Speaker:Elaine: be listening to music?
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely. Um, as I always say, we're happy to have listeners,
Speaker:Trist: no matter where or how you listen to us.
Speaker:Trist: So thank you for joining us.
Speaker:Trist: But if you do have the opportunity to make your
Speaker:Trist: listening environment better by going to a quieter place,
Speaker:Trist: grabbing the nicer headphones, going to your good speakers,
Speaker:Trist: going into your nicer car, whatever it is, wherever the
Speaker:Trist: best sound is.
Speaker:Trist: again, we're glad to have you regardless.
Speaker:Trist: But just a reminder, improve
Speaker:Trist: your environment of listening if
Speaker:Trist: you can.
Speaker:Trist: Thanks.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So we're going to take a really
Speaker:Elaine: quick break and we will be right
Speaker:Elaine: back.
Speaker:Elaine: And we're back.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, man.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm very curious why you chose this song.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker:Trist: Well, as you know, if you've
Speaker:Trist: listened all the way through all
Speaker:Trist: of ours.
Speaker:Trist: Uh. Thank you.
Speaker:Trist: If not, why not go back and listen to some others?
Speaker:Trist: We had the Jim Croce song, which
Speaker:Trist: I just kind of call a story
Speaker:Trist: song.
Speaker:Trist: Kind of a storyteller song.
Speaker:Trist: I really liked the makeup of it.
Speaker:Trist: It's very sing songy without seeming too trite to me.
Speaker:Trist: Very catchy.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes it's not any deeper than that.
Speaker:Trist: I really like these lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: I really like the story.
Speaker:Trist: I like the melody.
Speaker:Trist: That's why.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Let's go into that a little bit when we're talking
Speaker:Elaine: about the story, because the Jim Croce song was very much a
Speaker:Elaine: descriptive song, right?
Speaker:Elaine: It was
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: like what had happened from the outside.
Speaker:Elaine: And this is more from the inside.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: We're brought along with the narrator's journey, his internal
Speaker:Elaine: journey through this experience.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker:Elaine: I definitely took notes, so.
Speaker:Trist: It's interesting because I heard
Speaker:Trist: this song first right when it
Speaker:Trist: came out, I like his writing and
Speaker:Trist: his recording.
Speaker:Trist: So usually when his albums come out, not always, but usually I
Speaker:Trist: try to listen to them sometime after they come out.
Speaker:Trist: And this one in particular, I kind of gave a listen.
Speaker:Trist: And there's a couple things that
Speaker:Trist: like maybe a single that I'd
Speaker:Trist: heard somewhere.
Speaker:Trist: So I thought, oh, this will be cool.
Speaker:Trist: This one caught me by surprise.
Speaker:Trist: This is one of those the first listen, the first time through
Speaker:Trist: it, it became my favorite song on the album.
Speaker:Trist: And as I recommend it to people or talk about it, I only think
Speaker:Trist: of this song.
Speaker:Trist: I barely can think of other songs that are on the album.
Speaker:Trist: I guess it just really stuck with me.
Speaker:Trist: The thing is, the more I've listened to it, I've seen
Speaker:Trist: different perspectives of it.
Speaker:Trist: I think the first time I heard
Speaker:Trist: it, I heard it as, in the way
Speaker:Trist: the form is, it's just kind of
Speaker:Trist: like a b a b a b. It just goes
Speaker:Trist: back and forth between two
Speaker:Trist: different sections.
Speaker:Trist: And then at the end, the very
Speaker:Trist: last thing is like a C, it's
Speaker:Trist: like, oh, this is different
Speaker:Trist: material which fits with the
Speaker:Trist: content.
Speaker:Trist: So you know, talking about
Speaker:Trist: here's this relationship that is
Speaker:Trist: deteriorating and there's all
Speaker:Trist: these things that are going
Speaker:Trist: wrong.
Speaker:Trist: And at the end, my first listen, I heard because as you're living
Speaker:Trist: it with them, it's like, oh man, this is going downhill.
Speaker:Trist: This is all bad.
Speaker:Trist: And then you hear, but I don't want any of that to happen.
Speaker:Trist: So I'm going to do this and I'm going to change the outcome.
Speaker:Trist: So my first time listening to it, it felt active like hey
Speaker:Trist: these things can happen.
Speaker:Trist: So I'm going to do something to change the outcome.
Speaker:Trist: And this time when I listened it, preparing to talk about it,
Speaker:Trist: I heard someone who's had to have this experience and is
Speaker:Trist: telling someone else.
Speaker:Trist: Of course, I'm such an optimist.
Speaker:Trist: The first time I heard it like, oh, that's really great.
Speaker:Trist: He didn't have the heartbreak.
Speaker:Trist: He thwarted his problems.
Speaker:Trist: He figured it out.
Speaker:Trist: But then on this listen, I kind of realized, oh, wait a minute,
Speaker:Trist: he doesn't know all of those things unless he's lived it.
Speaker:Trist: So this time I heard it.
Speaker:Trist: I'm sure I could hear it in
Speaker:Trist: different ways and different
Speaker:Trist: people could.
Speaker:Trist: But this time I heard it like, oh, hey, I've had all of this
Speaker:Trist: happen to me.
Speaker:Trist: So, here's your lesson to be learned, a cautionary tale.
Speaker:Trist: Thwart this before it happens to you, too.
Speaker:Trist: It's kind of how I heard it this next time and in a month I might
Speaker:Trist: hear it differently.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, I think I agree with you
Speaker:Elaine: in that the outro is really the
Speaker:Elaine: turnaround, and I just labeled
Speaker:Elaine: it as outro because it's so
Speaker:Elaine: different than the rest of the
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Trist: Mm-hm.
Speaker:Elaine: And as he is talking about, he's made this decision, he's going
Speaker:Elaine: to leave her a note and say, even though we're imperfect, I'm
Speaker:Elaine: never going to leave.
Speaker:Elaine: And that is where the song ends, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Where The narrator is definitely.
Speaker:Elaine: He's made a decision.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, the way that I read the
Speaker:Elaine: verse, chorus, verse, chorus,
Speaker:Elaine: verse, chorus.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Because there are three of them, is there's this feeling of
Speaker:Elaine: running things through to the end and then there's a wisdom
Speaker:Elaine: that he accesses through previous experience saying, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, after you've broken up with someone, after you've gone
Speaker:Elaine: through this experience, you don't know the full ramification
Speaker:Elaine: of you choosing to do this.
Speaker:Elaine: And there are some things that
Speaker:Elaine: he calls out in terms of the
Speaker:Elaine: regret that he has in breaking
Speaker:Elaine: up with previous people,
Speaker:Elaine: perhaps.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: And just saying, like, you're never going to know that you're
Speaker:Elaine: not going to remember this argument that you have.
Speaker:Elaine: And as I was reading through this, a couple of phrases stuck
Speaker:Elaine: out to me.
Speaker:Elaine: First of all, in the first verse he's talking about, "you can't
Speaker:Elaine: remember why you said goodbye."
Speaker:Elaine: And that to me was, oh, this is a voice of experience, right?
Speaker:Elaine: This is someone
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: who has gone through it a couple of times and realized, oh, I
Speaker:Elaine: can't even remember why I broke up with that person.
Speaker:Elaine: And there are a couple of other things that came to mind was,
Speaker:Elaine: man, there's this incredible lyric of "To watch a girl become
Speaker:Elaine: a ghost before your eyes."
Speaker:Trist: Hmm.
Speaker:Elaine: That
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: to me was like, oh, that was a killer lyric for me.
Speaker:Elaine: Because, you know, this is really strong metaphor about
Speaker:Elaine: being a ghost.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, this is someone who literally is haunting you.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm like, ah, this is awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: This is
Speaker:Trist: And
Speaker:Elaine: so
Speaker:Trist: also
Speaker:Elaine: good.
Speaker:Trist: because it's a newer song like that lyric is great if it was
Speaker:Trist: written in 1965.
Speaker:Trist: But the concept that we have in
Speaker:Trist: modern day, relationships about
Speaker:Trist: ghosting.
Speaker:Trist: Oh yeah.
Speaker:Trist: He
Speaker:Elaine: Oh.
Speaker:Trist: ghosted me.
Speaker:Trist: So it may or may not have come into his mind because of that.
Speaker:Trist: Who
Speaker:Elaine: I
Speaker:Trist: knows?
Speaker:Elaine: doubt it, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: But but but that's what that is.
Speaker:Trist: And I read that as that.
Speaker:Trist: Like like that's something that hits a little bit more currently
Speaker:Trist: again, than if it were
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah
Speaker:Trist: written, you know, thirty years
Speaker:Elaine: I
Speaker:Trist: ago.
Speaker:Trist: Just a
Speaker:Elaine: yeah,
Speaker:Trist: side note about that.
Speaker:Elaine: I
Speaker:Trist: That's
Speaker:Elaine: kind
Speaker:Trist: a cool line
Speaker:Elaine: of
Speaker:Trist: though.
Speaker:Elaine: I didn't read it that way.
Speaker:Elaine: It was more of, you know, how in
Speaker:Elaine: movies you're seeing things in
Speaker:Elaine: color and, and then like, it
Speaker:Elaine: slowly fades into black and
Speaker:Elaine: white or vice versa, where it's
Speaker:Elaine: like black and white, it slowly
Speaker:Elaine: fades
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: into color.
Speaker:Elaine: There's that sense of, like, disappearing, right?
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, where it's like, oh, here's someone who effectively becomes
Speaker:Elaine: transparent, like she disappears right in front of his eyes.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: So, yeah, it was just interesting to me.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, and then there's this very
Speaker:Elaine: descriptive scene about
Speaker:Elaine: Christmas where it's very
Speaker:Elaine: poignant.
Speaker:Elaine: He's like, you don't realize until the fact that you're
Speaker:Elaine: sitting here alone with this drugstore Christmas tree, which,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: by the way, I think it's totally fine.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: But he's
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: feeling like, oh, man.
Speaker:Elaine: Like I'm missing her crazy family.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm missing Christmas Eve.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm missing all of these things.
Speaker:Elaine: And so there's a sense of I don't even know if it's
Speaker:Elaine: nostalgia, but really the sense of deep, deep regret.
Speaker:Elaine: And so by the time he makes his turn into this is what I'm going
Speaker:Elaine: to do, he's kind of thinking about all these experiences that
Speaker:Elaine: he's had in the past saying, oh, if I make this choice to break
Speaker:Elaine: up with her over this particular thing, I'm going to experience
Speaker:Elaine: these feelings again.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: it's never at the moment where you break up that you think
Speaker:Elaine: about these things.
Speaker:Elaine: And so in some ways, he has extrapolated the experience that
Speaker:Elaine: he will have in the future and realizing that's not the future
Speaker:Elaine: that he wants
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: and therefore he changes his mind.
Speaker:Elaine: That's what I took out of
Speaker:Elaine: reading the lyrics and thinking
Speaker:Elaine: about, oh, okay, where is this
Speaker:Elaine: person?
Speaker:Elaine: What is he trying to describe right now?
Speaker:Elaine: And I just thought it was incredibly masterful, just kind
Speaker:Elaine: of where he ended up.
Speaker:Elaine: The turn at the very end, I
Speaker:Elaine: think is what really makes the
Speaker:Elaine: song, because
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: if it had just been like the
Speaker:Elaine: verse chorus, it's like, oh
Speaker:Elaine: yeah, there are some really nice
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: in there.
Speaker:Elaine: That's cool,
Speaker:Trist: Exactly.
Speaker:Elaine: you know?
Speaker:Elaine: But
Speaker:Trist: Exactly.
Speaker:Elaine: the turn of it, we go with him because he has
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: set it up in a position where we
Speaker:Elaine: are just following and
Speaker:Elaine: following, following.
Speaker:Elaine: And then, he turns.
Speaker:Trist: Yep. Going back to why I chose that one, I think that's the
Speaker:Trist: crux of it.
Speaker:Trist: That last stanza, and how musically it fits because the
Speaker:Trist: content is different, the content gives a turn.
Speaker:Trist: It's all the reminiscing, all these things.
Speaker:Trist: You'll remember all this stuff,
Speaker:Trist: but never on the day you leave,
Speaker:Trist: on the day you leave, you leave
Speaker:Trist: because all this stuff and you
Speaker:Trist: have all this evidence and all
Speaker:Trist: these things and and then you
Speaker:Trist: leave and then you have these
Speaker:Trist: remembrances.
Speaker:Trist: And that's a pretty good song.
Speaker:Trist: even before the outro, if it
Speaker:Trist: just fades into oblivion and we
Speaker:Trist: don't get the outro, pretty
Speaker:Trist: solid song.
Speaker:Trist: Really nice melodic, cool little changes, singsongy, memorable,
Speaker:Trist: etc. Not a bad song, but man, to me the outro makes it an A+
Speaker:Trist: because it gives so much more.
Speaker:Trist: And again, different interpretations.
Speaker:Trist: And I love that the content
Speaker:Trist: changes and so musically it
Speaker:Trist: follows.
Speaker:Trist: And if I can extrapolate more on that, this song doesn't have a
Speaker:Trist: lot happening musically.
Speaker:Trist: The last episode, (thank you, listeners, if you've listened to
Speaker:Trist: the last episode) about the Michael Jackson tune, funky,
Speaker:Trist: rhythmic, we talked about how I sometimes even think about what
Speaker:Trist: the lyrics are.
Speaker:Trist: That song isn't necessarily about that.
Speaker:Trist: This, he's a very musical guy.
Speaker:Trist: Lots of producers, knows lots of great musicians, you could do a
Speaker:Trist: lot of stuff behind this lyrics, behind these melodies, but
Speaker:Trist: what's important is this story and the lyrics are super
Speaker:Trist: important in this song.
Speaker:Trist: So, it's very purposely kind of plain.
Speaker:Trist: It's just very unobtrusive.
Speaker:Trist: I can't even remember everything that's there.
Speaker:Trist: There's maybe some real strings.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe it's a keyboard pad, some guitar.
Speaker:Trist: But, you know, there's a band, but it's like the focus is this.
Speaker:Trist: That's where a producer might.
Speaker:Trist: Someone might say, oh, hey, what if we put this here?
Speaker:Trist: And the producer has to go, "Yeah, that's just going to get
Speaker:Trist: in the way.
Speaker:Trist: We need the lyrics to shine here."
Speaker:Trist: So I love how musically everything supports this, even
Speaker:Trist: down to finally when the perspective of the song changes.
Speaker:Trist: That's the first time we get like, new chords and a new
Speaker:Trist: little bit of a structure right at the end, I like that.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, we actually had a new little structure.
Speaker:Elaine: There was a little interlude between the second chorus and
Speaker:Elaine: the third verse that was a little bit different, but you're
Speaker:Elaine: right, in that it really makes a left turn at the outro.
Speaker:Elaine: And not a complete left turn, it
Speaker:Elaine: still sounds natural to move in
Speaker:Elaine: here, but it does shift gears a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit.
Speaker:Trist: It gets your attention.
Speaker:Elaine: It definitely does.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, one thing that I did note
Speaker:Elaine: as I was listening to this was
Speaker:Elaine: the instrumentation.
Speaker:Elaine: And one thing that I thought was
Speaker:Elaine: interesting was how the
Speaker:Elaine: different instruments came
Speaker:Elaine: together to create the sense of
Speaker:Elaine: intimacy.
Speaker:Elaine: Because I think that's what you were going for when you were
Speaker:Elaine: just talking about how the instruments pulled way back.
Speaker:Elaine: It was a very acoustic set.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: And.
Speaker:Elaine: even though I knew that there were some electric instruments
Speaker:Elaine: in there, there was a little section where there was an
Speaker:Elaine: electric guitar, but even the electric guitar didn't have a
Speaker:Elaine: whole lot of effects on it.
Speaker:Elaine: Same thing with the bass I was trying to figure out.
Speaker:Elaine: Is this an electric bass?
Speaker:Elaine: Is this an upright?
Speaker:Elaine: It sounded like an electric bass because of the tone, but
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: that also was a very clean signal.
Speaker:Elaine: So I'm thinking, this is a very intimate set.
Speaker:Elaine: It sounds very acoustic, which I
Speaker:Elaine: think was pretty much what this
Speaker:Elaine: album sounded like versus some
Speaker:Elaine: of the more, I'd say, pop rock
Speaker:Elaine: kind of style that he had in
Speaker:Elaine: previous albums.
Speaker:Elaine: But yeah, I just thought that it
Speaker:Elaine: was instrumented in a way that
Speaker:Elaine: encouraged that level of
Speaker:Elaine: tenderness and hurt that he was
Speaker:Elaine: trying to get across in this
Speaker:Elaine: particular song.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm kind of curious because I heard and I wrote down that it
Speaker:Elaine: sounded a little country.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know if you
Speaker:Trist: One
Speaker:Elaine: got
Speaker:Trist: hundred
Speaker:Elaine: that.
Speaker:Trist: percent.
Speaker:Trist: That was also right after I
Speaker:Trist: heard it, I said, oh, I wouldn't
Speaker:Trist: be surprised if it was one of
Speaker:Trist: those that just almost wrote
Speaker:Trist: itself.
Speaker:Trist: Once you have that concept, the story just kind of like, oh,
Speaker:Trist: this song is almost done now.
Speaker:Trist: Like it just lays itself out,
Speaker:Trist: you just have to fill in the
Speaker:Trist: details.
Speaker:Trist: It feels like one of those not a prolific songwriter, but I have
Speaker:Trist: songs that are like that.
Speaker:Trist: Like, once I think of the idea, it just kind of all falls out.
Speaker:Trist: I don't have to work day after day to think of new things.
Speaker:Trist: It just kind of like, oh, yep, this is the idea.
Speaker:Trist: Boom song.
Speaker:Trist: I haven't done enough research on it, but I wouldn't be
Speaker:Trist: surprised if that is kind of what happened with him here.
Speaker:Trist: And he's making an album so great, put it on there.
Speaker:Trist: But man, he'd be well served to have given this to a country
Speaker:Trist: artist, I think.
Speaker:Trist: I could hear- still the same basic stuff.
Speaker:Trist: You just do the exact same song, but put a bolo tie on it, you
Speaker:Trist: know what I mean?
Speaker:Trist: Instead of that clean, regular guitar that he plays, one little
Speaker:Trist: slide guitar, another voice that has just a little more twang in
Speaker:Trist: it just to lead you there.
Speaker:Trist: Because the content and the kind of story that it is, it's the
Speaker:Trist: kind of form and stories that are told in country music a lot.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh. It's interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: So you're thinking that it
Speaker:Elaine: sounds country because of the
Speaker:Elaine: structure?
Speaker:Trist: Just the kind of song it is.
Speaker:Trist: It's just the kind of telling those stories like, "Well, son."
Speaker:Elaine: Well, it's interesting because I
Speaker:Elaine: thought it was more the
Speaker:Elaine: instrumentation
Speaker:Trist: Oh.
Speaker:Elaine: than the structure of the song because, as I was listening to
Speaker:Elaine: the instrumentation, again, I didn't hear any slide, you know,
Speaker:Elaine: so it wasn't
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: like a full country, but it had
Speaker:Elaine: and I don't know whether it was
Speaker:Elaine: the specific instrumentation,
Speaker:Elaine: but it made me think of a
Speaker:Elaine: particular venue that I'm
Speaker:Elaine: familiar with that has now,
Speaker:Elaine: like, moved.
Speaker:Elaine: But it was at the time, really wood beams, very
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: casual.
Speaker:Elaine: A lot of more casual seating.
Speaker:Elaine: It just felt like you were performing inside of a barn.
Speaker:Elaine: There were a lot of rugs that were out there on
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: the stage itself.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it was one of those
Speaker:Elaine: things that it felt really
Speaker:Elaine: intimate, really
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: pared back, and
Speaker:Trist: I guess that's
Speaker:Elaine: also
Speaker:Trist: another
Speaker:Elaine: felt
Speaker:Trist: characteristic.
Speaker:Elaine: really homey.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Maybe the characteristic
Speaker:Trist: also of, country music is that
Speaker:Trist: because the storytelling in this
Speaker:Trist: kind of a song is what's
Speaker:Trist: important.
Speaker:Trist: So the production of a lot of those kinds of songs do exactly
Speaker:Trist: what this does.
Speaker:Trist: It's very background, it's very basic.
Speaker:Trist: So maybe subliminally, that lack of flash in the back made me
Speaker:Trist: think country also.
Speaker:Trist: Even though it wasn't at the
Speaker:Trist: fore of my my thought, I was
Speaker:Trist: just like, oh, it is the kind of
Speaker:Trist: song like I could hear right
Speaker:Trist: away.
Speaker:Trist: And often songs like this
Speaker:Trist: country artists will just pick
Speaker:Trist: up.
Speaker:Trist: I've heard songs from Sting get rerecorded by country artists
Speaker:Trist: because it's the same way.
Speaker:Trist: It's like a good storyteller.
Speaker:Trist: his original might not have been twangy, but this other voice
Speaker:Trist: might do it.
Speaker:Trist: So I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker:Trist: But someone should jump on that and then give us credit.
Speaker:Trist: Um, but, it would be a really
Speaker:Trist: great country artist track, I
Speaker:Trist: think.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, definitely led me to the thought of what defines country,
Speaker:Elaine: what defines that style, and
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: why do I have such a very deep cognitive connection between
Speaker:Elaine: what I heard and what I saw mentally in my head, both in
Speaker:Elaine: like, oh, I don't know if there was a music video, but this is
Speaker:Elaine: what I would see in a music
Speaker:Trist: Right,
Speaker:Elaine: video.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: There is something that was very it, triggered something very
Speaker:Elaine: deep inside of me that thought, oh, this is country, but like
Speaker:Elaine: old Country, like 1950s Country.
Speaker:Elaine: It was
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: something that was very reminiscent.
Speaker:Elaine: I can't really put my finger on it, but I just
Speaker:Trist: Yep
Speaker:Elaine: thought I would bring it up.
Speaker:Trist: yep I think like we've just
Speaker:Trist: covered you know the, the basic
Speaker:Trist: storytelling.
Speaker:Trist: It's not super layered.
Speaker:Trist: It's not like "Ooh, what does he mean by that?" It's like well no
Speaker:Trist: it's very out front cautionary tale etc.. So, "songs for the
Speaker:Trist: people," as it were.
Speaker:Trist: And then the very basic just supporting musical background,
Speaker:Trist: that isn't exceptional really in any way, because it's just there
Speaker:Trist: to support the storytelling.
Speaker:Elaine: Hmm. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: That's it.
Speaker:Trist: sometimes I choose songs here, not because there's a lot to
Speaker:Trist: talk about, it's just that I want people to hear these songs
Speaker:Trist: that maybe they didn't get to.
Speaker:Trist: There's a bunch of great John Mayer songs that a lot of people
Speaker:Trist: have already heard, so sometimes it's fun to pick those apart.
Speaker:Trist: here, with the two of us.
Speaker:Trist: But sometimes I like to pick
Speaker:Trist: songs that's almost just like,
Speaker:Trist: hey, wanted everyone to know
Speaker:Trist: that this exists and that we
Speaker:Trist: like it.
Speaker:Elaine: One hundred percent.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, let's wrap up and
Speaker:Elaine: shift into our next segment,
Speaker:Elaine: which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag.
Speaker:Elaine: The mailbag.
Speaker:Trist: That's
Speaker:Elaine: Well,
Speaker:Trist: right.
Speaker:Elaine: this week also comes from Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: This is from Eric Alper, who is a freelance music publicist.
Speaker:Elaine: He's really well known in Canada
Speaker:Elaine: and has managed some really big
Speaker:Elaine: people.
Speaker:Elaine: This one comes from November
Speaker:Elaine: 2025, and he writes: "Local
Speaker:Elaine: music scenes are built by the
Speaker:Elaine: fifty people who show up every
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Elaine: Be one of those fifty.
Speaker:Elaine: Every legendary artist started in a half empty room with
Speaker:Elaine: believers like you."
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: So one of the things that I
Speaker:Elaine: wanted to talk about was local
Speaker:Elaine: music scenes and how they are
Speaker:Elaine: important to, you know, up and
Speaker:Elaine: coming musicians or, even
Speaker:Elaine: working musicians.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm kind of curious what you
Speaker:Elaine: think about that and the
Speaker:Elaine: importance of showing up for
Speaker:Elaine: local artists.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, wow.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, it's always been important, but I think it's more
Speaker:Trist: important than ever, to, yeah, physically show up for artists
Speaker:Trist: that you want to support.
Speaker:Trist: That is support.
Speaker:Trist: Even if it's just a small venue
Speaker:Trist: and it was only 10, 15 bucks to
Speaker:Trist: get in, that fifty people shows
Speaker:Trist: the artists that there's
Speaker:Trist: somebody there for them and
Speaker:Trist: shows the person booking the
Speaker:Trist: venue that somebody is there for
Speaker:Trist: them.
Speaker:Trist: Booking the show, You can show a
Speaker:Trist: venue booker, that you've got
Speaker:Trist: whatever numbers you have on
Speaker:Trist: whatever social media platform
Speaker:Trist: you've got, but those can be
Speaker:Trist: from anywhere.
Speaker:Trist: And so when they book you
Speaker:Trist: because you have said numbers
Speaker:Trist: and then there's five people at
Speaker:Trist: your show.
Speaker:Trist: Well, that doesn't help you.
Speaker:Trist: I guess for this conversation, it's just to do what you can to
Speaker:Trist: support when you do like an artist and maybe they don't come
Speaker:Trist: to your town or maybe you can't get to them.
Speaker:Trist: And so, in a previous episode, we talked about buying merch.
Speaker:Trist: That's one way you can do that, just showing support.
Speaker:Trist: just like so many of these topics.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, maybe you won't
Speaker:Trist: necessarily make the difference,
Speaker:Trist: but the collective you will make
Speaker:Trist: a difference.
Speaker:Trist: So everybody that's like you, if everybody that's really into an
Speaker:Trist: artist just thinks, oh, you know, I hope I get some more
Speaker:Trist: music from them someday while I keep just streaming the same few
Speaker:Trist: songs that pays whatever little bit that it pays.
Speaker:Trist: that's support, I guess, to some degree.
Speaker:Trist: But if you don't talk to other people about it.
Speaker:Trist: If you don't buy the merch, if you don't attend a concert that
Speaker:Trist: you can attend, then you're not really supporting them.
Speaker:Trist: You're just enjoying them.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, it's interesting to think
Speaker:Elaine: about because on the one hand
Speaker:Elaine: there is, supporting the artists
Speaker:Elaine: that you already love and the
Speaker:Elaine: thing that I really latch on to
Speaker:Elaine: here is the phrase local music
Speaker:Elaine: scene.
Speaker:Elaine: And, really what it comes down to is discovery.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, how do you discover new acts and how do you get engaged
Speaker:Elaine: with new acts?
Speaker:Elaine: And so part of it is showing up to just random events right at
Speaker:Elaine: your local music venue, and maybe going to attend something,
Speaker:Elaine: or going to listen to something that you might not really like
Speaker:Elaine: or might not actually know a whole lot about.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm kind of curious about, how you would approach that in
Speaker:Elaine: trying to discover new music or trying to figure it out.
Speaker:Elaine: Is it one of those things where people need to have their music
Speaker:Elaine: out already, so that people who might be interested can evaluate
Speaker:Elaine: before they attend?
Speaker:Elaine: Or is it one of those things
Speaker:Elaine: where we should, just as music
Speaker:Elaine: lovers, make a commitment to go
Speaker:Elaine: to one new show every year, or
Speaker:Elaine: to check out an artist that they
Speaker:Elaine: might not have checked out
Speaker:Elaine: otherwise?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think either of those ways work.
Speaker:Trist: I think another way around it, Maybe you have a group of
Speaker:Trist: friends or a friend or a little friend group that you know what?
Speaker:Trist: We like this venue.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: We like the bar at this venue.
Speaker:Trist: We like the food at this venue.
Speaker:Trist: We like the atmosphere.
Speaker:Trist: If you're lucky enough to find a place like that.
Speaker:Trist: Me
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: and my friends like hanging out
Speaker:Trist: at this place no matter what the
Speaker:Trist: music is.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Some nights it might not even be music at that place.
Speaker:Trist: We have a place we like.
Speaker:Trist: And then some nights you go and there is music there, you didn't
Speaker:Trist: go there for it necessarily.
Speaker:Trist: Now the slippery slope is now that there is music there.
Speaker:Trist: And even though you didn't come there for it, be respectful to
Speaker:Trist: them and maybe, hopefully they'll gain your attention.
Speaker:Trist: And you can find out you like
Speaker:Trist: this artist you've never heard
Speaker:Trist: of.
Speaker:Trist: rather than, what are these
Speaker:Trist: people doing annoying me at my
Speaker:Trist: favorite venue to go out and
Speaker:Trist: drink at?
Speaker:Trist: That's not quite what we're
Speaker:Trist: talking about, but find a music
Speaker:Trist: venue, a place that has music
Speaker:Trist: frequently where you might not
Speaker:Trist: know.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, or maybe you find it because
Speaker:Trist: you went and saw an artist you
Speaker:Trist: liked.
Speaker:Elaine: Hmm.
Speaker:Trist: Um, you know, most of those
Speaker:Trist: venues, someone will introduce
Speaker:Trist: an act.
Speaker:Trist: Hey, glad to finally have them here.
Speaker:Trist: By the way, next week we have
Speaker:Trist: this show that's kind of like
Speaker:Trist: this.
Speaker:Trist: And then next month we have this, you know, they're always
Speaker:Trist: promoting their stuff or handing out flyers or you'll see posters
Speaker:Trist: as you get into the venue.
Speaker:Trist: and you know, really do check that out.
Speaker:Trist: Like if they're promoting them during a show.
Speaker:Trist: Oftentimes it's because they're similar.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah,
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: yeah.
Speaker:Trist: so at least then then hey, this was a fun night.
Speaker:Trist: Look, in one month, there's another artist that they said is
Speaker:Trist: kind of like this.
Speaker:Trist: Let's come check it out so you can just have a place that you
Speaker:Trist: like to hang and it's not dependent on, like, oh yeah,
Speaker:Trist: that artist was just okay to me.
Speaker:Trist: You still had a great time with your friends out at the place.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I also wonder about, you know, when you're talking about
Speaker:Elaine: a bar or whatnot.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, that's not the only place where music comes,
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: but I'm interested in the role of smaller venues in discovery
Speaker:Elaine: because there are some really great venues out there that are
Speaker:Elaine: 100, 150 people.
Speaker:Elaine: I've certainly performed at some of these, or even the 200 to 500
Speaker:Elaine: just before you get to, the really large venues of like 500
Speaker:Elaine: plus, just because I think for the local music scene, you're
Speaker:Elaine: generally not getting local musicians that are playing the
Speaker:Elaine: big stadiums, right?
Speaker:Elaine: We're
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: not talking about 1,000 plus.
Speaker:Elaine: You are really talking about the smaller venues.
Speaker:Elaine: So what do you think the
Speaker:Elaine: relationship is between us as
Speaker:Elaine: local music consumers and how we
Speaker:Elaine: can create an environment around
Speaker:Elaine: this.
Speaker:Trist: Mm. I mean I think that goes to more what we were already
Speaker:Trist: talking about finding the place that you like.
Speaker:Trist: I think one thing I can add is
Speaker:Trist: that with some of the smaller
Speaker:Trist: venues, you're talking about a
Speaker:Trist: lower cover.
Speaker:Trist: So it's easier to patronize those places more frequently.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and Here's another concept
Speaker:Trist: is an equal amount of you're
Speaker:Trist: going to support these artists,
Speaker:Trist: but make sure when you're there,
Speaker:Trist: support the establishment as
Speaker:Trist: well.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: So the cover oftentimes helps go pay the artist.
Speaker:Trist: That's great that you've done that to support them.
Speaker:Trist: And then if you just have water
Speaker:Trist: the whole time you're there, you
Speaker:Trist: haven't done anything to help
Speaker:Trist: support the venue bringing the
Speaker:Trist: people in.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: So just being cognizant as a
Speaker:Trist: consumer all the time, like, oh
Speaker:Trist: yeah, okay, I don't really drink
Speaker:Trist: heavily.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, I'll have that little appetizer and give me a Coke or
Speaker:Trist: give me some fruit juice or give me some non-alcoholic drink.
Speaker:Trist: But often those places are
Speaker:Trist: supported by their bar selling
Speaker:Trist: alcohol, selling drinks, selling
Speaker:Trist: food, or whatever else they
Speaker:Trist: have.
Speaker:Trist: So just be cognizant, even if
Speaker:Trist: that's not what you're there
Speaker:Trist: for.
Speaker:Trist: just as much as, hey, I want to
Speaker:Trist: contribute to the success of
Speaker:Trist: this artist.
Speaker:Trist: I want to contribute to the
Speaker:Trist: success of this venue, to keep
Speaker:Trist: providing us a space for the
Speaker:Trist: artists.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm. Yeah. I think that's so important.
Speaker:Elaine: And with more and more venues disappearing, I know that the
Speaker:Elaine: pandemic was really hard on a lot of venues.
Speaker:Elaine: I have a very similar set of
Speaker:Elaine: thoughts, although there are
Speaker:Elaine: also some parameters around
Speaker:Elaine: there.
Speaker:Elaine: Definitely the older I get, the
Speaker:Elaine: more I'm like, ah man, I cannot
Speaker:Elaine: make it to a nine or ten pm
Speaker:Elaine: show.
Speaker:Elaine: I just
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: like physically cannot handle this.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, you know, definitely there are sacrifices that I've
Speaker:Elaine: made to go see and support local artists where I'm like, okay,
Speaker:Elaine: I'm going to take a nap and I'm going to be out late.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, and generally these are for my friends, you know, people who
Speaker:Elaine: I've known for a long time.
Speaker:Elaine: But I know that that is also something that as a practice, I
Speaker:Elaine: will probably want to do at some point in time.
Speaker:Elaine: How do I support our local
Speaker:Elaine: artists so that we do have
Speaker:Elaine: excellent local artists coming
Speaker:Elaine: from the local scene into the
Speaker:Elaine: national spotlight.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think if we don't have a
Speaker:Elaine: local music scene, we're never
Speaker:Elaine: going to have those people who
Speaker:Elaine: are going to, be able to launch
Speaker:Elaine: into that national spotlight
Speaker:Elaine: because it is so hard for people
Speaker:Elaine: to jump.
Speaker:Elaine: You
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: actually have to have those laps in the pool.
Speaker:Elaine: And there are a lot of great
Speaker:Elaine: musicians who are working on the
Speaker:Elaine: local level.
Speaker:Elaine: And if they can't make a living
Speaker:Elaine: at it, or if they can't get the
Speaker:Elaine: gigs because the venues don't
Speaker:Elaine: exist, we end up in a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: struggle.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, we can't cultivate the
Speaker:Elaine: environment that we want to be
Speaker:Elaine: in as musicians if we don't, be
Speaker:Elaine: patrons of the same venues that
Speaker:Elaine: we want to be able to perform
Speaker:Elaine: in.
Speaker:Trist: Right. Yeah. I think the summary of, this whole thing, the moral
Speaker:Trist: of all of this is, just being a more conscientious consumer, not
Speaker:Trist: thinking it just from your perspective of like, oh, there's
Speaker:Trist: this band I want to go see.
Speaker:Trist: There's this artist I want to go check out.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Just remembering just what the whole process is.
Speaker:Trist: Again, like referring to what I was just saying when I go, oh,
Speaker:Trist: cool, I want to go see them.
Speaker:Trist: That's kind of for me because I want to enjoy them.
Speaker:Trist: and then the next level is knowing, oh, but I'm going to
Speaker:Trist: I'm not going to contact them because they're my friend so I
Speaker:Trist: can get in for free.
Speaker:Trist: What supports them is if I actually pay the cover because
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: that supports them.
Speaker:Trist: Really?
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Yes. My physical presence there will be supporting.
Speaker:Trist: They will like that I showed up.
Speaker:Trist: as you said, as we get older, just being able to leave the
Speaker:Trist: house shows that I must like something about you.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: It's harder and harder to leave the house as we get older.
Speaker:Trist: But then just again remembering
Speaker:Trist: oh, I'm supporting them this way
Speaker:Trist: and again supporting the venue,
Speaker:Trist: whatever.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, the venue sells a venue t shirt.
Speaker:Trist: I didn't really drink or eat a lot.
Speaker:Trist: I'll buy their t shirt because I love this place, and I want them
Speaker:Trist: to keep going."
Speaker:Trist: So just being cognizant that one extra step of thinking about how
Speaker:Trist: you are behaving as a consumer.
Speaker:Elaine: I was thinking also, this is a little bit of a sidebar.
Speaker:Elaine: There's an artist named Austin Kleon who I saw at a conference,
Speaker:Elaine: and he was talking about the concept of a "Scenius."
Speaker:Elaine: I think he eventually ended up writing a book about this.
Speaker:Elaine: But, he's talking about genius and how geniuses are made.
Speaker:Elaine: And he's like, I don't think geniuses are actually made.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that there are "sceniuses" that are made, and
Speaker:Elaine: it's because there is a local scene that the geniuses are
Speaker:Elaine: formed because they have people that they are, working with and
Speaker:Elaine: who push them to next level.
Speaker:Elaine: So he gave the example of Mozart, and he said Mozart was
Speaker:Elaine: only Mozart because there was an existing music scene that
Speaker:Elaine: appreciated music and existing sources of income, existing
Speaker:Elaine: people who he was competing against for audiences.
Speaker:Elaine: And so Austin's perspective on this was that, you don't have
Speaker:Elaine: these opportunities for brilliant artists to come into
Speaker:Elaine: play unless all of us participate in the scene itself.
Speaker:Elaine: If all of us support, if all of us participate in it.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, yeah, you will have a lot of people who are maybe
Speaker:Elaine: average or like maybe moderately interesting, but out of that is
Speaker:Elaine: going to come someone who's going to blow everyone else out
Speaker:Elaine: of the water.
Speaker:Elaine: And if you don't have a scene for them to be able to be seen
Speaker:Elaine: in that way, to be
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: to perform or, or whatnot.
Speaker:Elaine: That person is never going to be seen.
Speaker:Elaine: That person is never going to launch.
Speaker:Elaine: That person is never going to be the artist that they could be
Speaker:Elaine: and realize their
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: full potential.
Speaker:Elaine: So he, I think, was trying to think through this entire
Speaker:Elaine: concept of how do we create the environment for the next genius.
Speaker:Trist: Mm. That's cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. So extrapolating that to
Speaker:Elaine: music is, I think, just an
Speaker:Elaine: interesting thought.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Really cool.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: Any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: That's it.
Speaker:Trist: find a local venue.
Speaker:Trist: You like, find an artist you like.
Speaker:Trist: Go patronize it.
Speaker:Trist: as much as you can do in this crazy day and age.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: And so with that we will see you all next week.
Speaker:Trist: See you soon.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh no that's not the right button.
Speaker:Trist: I always sing harmony parts on there.
Speaker:Trist: So sing songy.
Speaker:Elaine: Nicer car.
Speaker:Trist: That's some la living right
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: there.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm like, I live among tech bros, and they don't even
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: tell me that, so,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
