South African harmonies, bilingual songwriting, and hailing a taxi: Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes (Paul Simon)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXe2HzFOJYQ
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/71GvlH0VdeClloLIkHrAVu?si=86a85fa9cc56478c
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/diamonds-on-the-soles-of-her-shoes/529574619
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0085LMFAE?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_InQKPS94PVgshxXsoqYCrDrci&trackAsin=B0085LMI9W
Key takeaways
- Trist and Elaine discuss “Diamonds in the Soles of Her Shoes” by Paul Simon in collaboration with the South African vocal group Ladysmith Black Mambazo. This song showcases the rich musical traditions of South Africa and addresses themes of class disparity and cultural integration during the apartheid era
- The lyrics of the song incorporate South African cultural elements, such as the "sign of a teaspoon" and "sign of a wave," which reference specific taxi signals in South Africa, adding depth and context to the narrative
- In the Mailbag portion, Trist and Elaine explore the idea that musical ability is not solely dependent on innate talent but can be cultivated through dedication and practice, emphasizing that anyone can achieve a decent level of musical proficiency with effort
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist.
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Elaine, this week, we are
Speaker:Trist: dealing with a song from
Speaker:Trist: probably in many kinds of lists
Speaker:Trist: of just the greatest albums
Speaker:Trist: ever.
Speaker:Trist: A song from, the great
Speaker:Trist: "Graceland" album from Paul
Speaker:Trist: Simon, an
Speaker:Elaine: Oh,
Speaker:Trist: album
Speaker:Elaine: okay.
Speaker:Trist: that was recorded on three different continents, maybe five
Speaker:Trist: or six different cities.
Speaker:Trist: So it's not a completely
Speaker:Trist: uncommon thing, but especially
Speaker:Trist: at the time, not super common
Speaker:Trist: then either.
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: the song I've chosen, there are so many.
Speaker:Trist: We could definitely do entire
Speaker:Trist: podcasts about this
Speaker:Trist: groundbreaking album.
Speaker:Trist: But I've chosen "Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: Cool. This is on an album that you recommended to me before,
Speaker:Elaine: and so this is going to be a repeat listen for me.
Speaker:Elaine: But as we get settled in here,
Speaker:Elaine: can you remind our listeners how
Speaker:Elaine: they should aim to be listening
Speaker:Elaine: to music?
Speaker:Trist: Well, I always mention how
Speaker:Trist: grateful we are to have any
Speaker:Trist: listeners.
Speaker:Trist: So whatever situation you're in, we're glad you are with us.
Speaker:Trist: I'd just like to add that if you
Speaker:Trist: can improve your listening
Speaker:Trist: environment, I encourage you to
Speaker:Trist: do so.
Speaker:Trist: Grab the nicer headphones you
Speaker:Trist: have, or go to the cool
Speaker:Trist: listening room, or your better
Speaker:Trist: car that has the better stereo
Speaker:Trist: in it.
Speaker:Trist: Whatever you can do to improve
Speaker:Trist: your listening, we're all about
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Trist: Especially in this one, we have
Speaker:Trist: a few things, that relate to the
Speaker:Trist: stereo imaging.
Speaker:Trist: So maybe some good headphones would be good for this one.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. And so with that we're going to drop the links to the
Speaker:Elaine: song in the show notes.
Speaker:Elaine: So we're going to take a pause and we will be right back.
Speaker:Elaine: And we're back.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh, I had completely forgotten about this intro when I listened
Speaker:Elaine: to it again.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: The
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: great
Speaker:Elaine: can you tell
Speaker:Trist: the.
Speaker:Elaine: me a little bit about why you chose this particular song?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, there's so much.
Speaker:Trist: Like so many Paul Simon lyrics and songs, pretty deep guy.
Speaker:Trist: Generally, there's a lot to consume.
Speaker:Trist: we could have, again, a whole
Speaker:Trist: podcast, just about some lyrics
Speaker:Trist: or a whole podcast about the
Speaker:Trist: harmonic and rhythmic
Speaker:Trist: differences or his combination
Speaker:Trist: of musicians from different
Speaker:Trist: parts of the world, etc. Just I
Speaker:Trist: like the culmination of all of
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Trist: And on this particular thing
Speaker:Trist: being, of course, as we all
Speaker:Trist: know, vocal music fans and a cappella
Speaker:Trist: group fans, Ladysmith Black
Speaker:Trist: Mambazo, the most famous vocal
Speaker:Trist: ensemble from maybe Africa,
Speaker:Trist: period, but especially from
Speaker:Trist: South Africa, having them involved.
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Trist: but I wanted more than just their feature. They
Speaker:Trist: are featured on a song called
Speaker:Trist: "Homeless" on the album, which
Speaker:Trist: is
Speaker:Elaine: Mm.
Speaker:Trist: wonderful.
Speaker:Trist: But I liked the combination of
Speaker:Trist: all of this, and I liked the
Speaker:Trist: variety of interpretations of
Speaker:Trist: some of the lyrics from
Speaker:Trist: "Diamonds on the Soles of Her
Speaker:Trist: Shoes."
Speaker:Elaine: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, I was
Speaker:Elaine: really thinking about that as
Speaker:Elaine: well.
Speaker:Elaine: And as I was looking this up on
Speaker:Elaine: Wikipedia, it looked like this
Speaker:Elaine: particular album actually
Speaker:Elaine: launched Ladysmith Black Mambazo
Speaker:Elaine: into the Western world, and
Speaker:Elaine: thinking about, the global South
Speaker:Elaine: versus the Western music
Speaker:Elaine: industry.
Speaker:Elaine: And now they're a multiple
Speaker:Elaine: Grammy Award winning group,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Trist: That's how a kid from Wyoming first heard of them, for sure.
Speaker:Trist: Not like they were coming to my area of the world.
Speaker:Trist: But, yeah, that's definitely how I first heard of them.
Speaker:Trist: And you're right, I think really introduced them and a lot of
Speaker:Trist: other South African musicians featured on this album who might
Speaker:Trist: have had decent careers where they were from.
Speaker:Trist: But, Paul Simon really brought them to the world on this album.
Speaker:Trist: By the way, Ladysmith Black Mambazo, I believe, the story
Speaker:Trist: goes, there's these singing competitions that would happen
Speaker:Trist: with groups like them.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: Um, and they were that group
Speaker:Trist: that won it so many times in a
Speaker:Trist: row that they were banned from
Speaker:Trist: the competition.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh that's hilarious.
Speaker:Trist: Like, they either like, you
Speaker:Trist: know, like they became the
Speaker:Trist: judges or it became the
Speaker:Trist: Ladysmith Black Mambazo prize or
Speaker:Trist: something like I might be making
Speaker:Trist: some of that part up, but it's
Speaker:Trist: like
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: it's something along those lines where like, they were so good.
Speaker:Trist: Eventually they're like, yeah,
Speaker:Trist: yeah, no, no, no, no more of you
Speaker:Trist: guys.
Speaker:Trist: Someone else needs to win.
Speaker:Trist: We get it.
Speaker:Trist: You're amazing.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. And I guess it makes sense.
Speaker:Elaine: We're talking about the mid 1980s.
Speaker:Elaine: That being said, one of the things that I was looking at was
Speaker:Elaine: the song in the context of the culture at the time, and
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: we're talking about South
Speaker:Elaine: Africa, we're talking about
Speaker:Elaine: apartheid.
Speaker:Elaine: I dug way into the rabbit hole of the history of apartheid
Speaker:Elaine: during this era, because
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: I wasn't really aware of global
Speaker:Elaine: politics at this point in time,
Speaker:Elaine: but
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: that was something that I just
Speaker:Elaine: found fascinating, that this
Speaker:Elaine: particular song, and also
Speaker:Elaine: Ladysmith Black Mambazo coming
Speaker:Elaine: to such prominence during this
Speaker:Elaine: time when, black artists even in
Speaker:Elaine: South Africa, weren't as widely
Speaker:Elaine: elevated or as highly regarded
Speaker:Elaine: because
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: of apartheid.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: very much helpful.
Speaker:Trist: no doubt that part of the
Speaker:Trist: motivation, knowing what you do
Speaker:Trist: know, even about whatever you
Speaker:Trist: might know about Paul Simon, you
Speaker:Trist: could assume there was a little
Speaker:Trist: bit of, hey, let's spread this,
Speaker:Trist: and maybe that'll actually bring
Speaker:Trist: some attention, as many artists
Speaker:Trist: were doing then just kind of
Speaker:Trist: getting fed up with the
Speaker:Trist: situation there and doing what
Speaker:Trist: they can.
Speaker:Trist: Lots of different tribute concerts and records and things
Speaker:Trist: to try to get attention to the apartheid situation there.
Speaker:Trist: So no doubt, a part of the push just to get that known and get
Speaker:Trist: that changed there for sure.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Now, one of the other
Speaker:Elaine: things that I was investigating,
Speaker:Elaine: kind of as an internal practice
Speaker:Elaine: because my ear immediately was
Speaker:Elaine: like, okay, this is definitely
Speaker:Elaine: Africa.
Speaker:Elaine: But then I was thinking, is it South Africa?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it some of the other places?
Speaker:Elaine: And I started to ask myself,
Speaker:Elaine: there is such a strong vocal
Speaker:Elaine: tradition in many parts of
Speaker:Elaine: Africa.
Speaker:Elaine: Why was it that I was unable to distinguish immediately what
Speaker:Elaine: area of Africa this was from?
Speaker:Elaine: And part of the reason I'm thinking about this is, being
Speaker:Elaine: Taiwanese-American and ethnically Chinese, there's like
Speaker:Elaine: Chinese food, but then there's all sorts of
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: like these sub, you know, genres
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: of Chinese
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: food that I am very well aware
Speaker:Elaine: of because to my palate it makes
Speaker:Elaine: a difference.
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: Like which region of China you're eating from, and what
Speaker:Elaine: subculture you're going to and for your typical, American, if
Speaker:Elaine: they don't live in a metropolis where there are lots of
Speaker:Elaine: different types of Chinese restaurants, they just think of
Speaker:Elaine: it as like one giant thing.
Speaker:Elaine: That was the same experience
Speaker:Elaine: that I had thinking about the
Speaker:Elaine: incredibly rich and diverse
Speaker:Elaine: music background and vocal music
Speaker:Elaine: background in various parts of
Speaker:Elaine: Africa.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm curious what your thoughts are on that?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, wow.
Speaker:Trist: I agree.
Speaker:Trist: I think, myself included, I'm not proficient in all of the
Speaker:Trist: different styles and I can't instantly be like, oh, that's
Speaker:Trist: from, this part of Africa that's from this country.
Speaker:Trist: That's I don't know those styles.
Speaker:Trist: There's a generalization and yeah, I think we do that a lot
Speaker:Trist: like you said, like Chinese food is just one thing, even though
Speaker:Trist: it can be so broad.
Speaker:Trist: I find musically, even though I'm more of a jazz musician and
Speaker:Trist: I really enjoy lots of different Latin music styles, a lot of
Speaker:Trist: times you'll see on Piece of Music like, oh yeah, okay, this
Speaker:Trist: one is swing and this one is rock, and this one is Latin.
Speaker:Trist: It'll say Latin, it won't say samba or bossa nova or whatever.
Speaker:Trist: It's all clumped into a thing.
Speaker:Trist: It's like
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: it'll just say Latin.
Speaker:Trist: I'm like, what does that mean?
Speaker:Trist: Are we singing in Latin?
Speaker:Trist: Um, so I've always made a joke
Speaker:Trist: about that, again, I include
Speaker:Trist: myself.
Speaker:Trist: I want to learn more about those differences.
Speaker:Trist: That's a great point.
Speaker:Elaine: I think there's also just thinking about it from a music
Speaker:Elaine: history perspective, this incredible influence that
Speaker:Elaine: Africa, especially West Africa, has on Latin American music and
Speaker:Elaine: Caribbean music because of the slave trade, right?
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Um.
Speaker:Elaine: we're thinking about how the
Speaker:Elaine: people who were forcefully taken
Speaker:Elaine: from their countries in West
Speaker:Elaine: Africa into the various
Speaker:Elaine: different parts, you know, we
Speaker:Elaine: have this flood of both vocal
Speaker:Elaine: music tradition as well as
Speaker:Elaine: percussion music tradition,
Speaker:Elaine: making it into these various
Speaker:Elaine: locations.
Speaker:Elaine: And I just think it's fascinating to think about it
Speaker:Elaine: and to really make ourselves more aware of what's happening.
Speaker:Elaine: And I see the same thing, by the way, happening with India, which
Speaker:Elaine: is, over a billion people, lots of different styles of music
Speaker:Elaine: that's coming from India and we just aren't aware of it.
Speaker:Elaine: It's just like, oh yeah,
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: it's all Bollywood music or it's all bhangra music.
Speaker:Elaine: Like we just don't know.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: it's worth it for us as
Speaker:Elaine: musicians to think a little more
Speaker:Elaine: critically about what we're
Speaker:Elaine: exposed to and what we're
Speaker:Elaine: familiar with.
Speaker:Elaine: Because I can tell you that there are so many incredible
Speaker:Elaine: Nigerian musicians out there that I'm just not aware of.
Speaker:Elaine: There are some
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: that I'm aware of, but a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: them I'm like, oh man, I just
Speaker:Elaine: need to listen to more Nigerian
Speaker:Elaine: music.
Speaker:Trist: Exactly. Um, and even in North
Speaker:Trist: Africa, like Tunisia or Algeria,
Speaker:Trist: Egypt.
Speaker:Trist: You know, that's all Africa too.
Speaker:Elaine: That's
Speaker:Trist: And so
Speaker:Elaine: right.
Speaker:Trist: different from this.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, it's like that.
Speaker:Trist: Like this African group.
Speaker:Trist: It's like.
Speaker:Trist: What does that mean?
Speaker:Trist: It could mean anything.
Speaker:Trist: So that's a really great point
Speaker:Trist: and one I wasn't even thinking
Speaker:Trist: of.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, And with that, I'd like to
Speaker:Elaine: get a little bit more into the
Speaker:Elaine: song because we've been talking
Speaker:Elaine: about the culture around the
Speaker:Elaine: song, but less so the song
Speaker:Elaine: itself.
Speaker:Elaine: So can you tell me a little bit about what you hear in the song
Speaker:Elaine: and the types of things that we should be listening to?
Speaker:Trist: Oh man, I love the lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: even straight up, he's telling you, she's a rich girl.
Speaker:Trist: Don't try to hide it, diamonds on the soles of your shoes.
Speaker:Trist: Like that can be interpreted so many ways.
Speaker:Trist: Like so rich that you can have
Speaker:Trist: these gems on the bottoms of
Speaker:Trist: your shoes, you've got so much
Speaker:Trist: money.
Speaker:Trist: Kind of trying to emphasize how much she is above socially than
Speaker:Trist: this poor boy.
Speaker:Trist: Empty as a pocket.
Speaker:Trist: I love that line.
Speaker:Trist: Empty as a pocket with nothing to lose.
Speaker:Trist: The history of entertainment is loaded with stories, songs,
Speaker:Trist: movies, shows about, the couple from two different sides of the
Speaker:Trist: tracks, as it were.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I wrote down this is kind of an "Uptown Girl" kind of
Speaker:Elaine: vibe, you know,
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: thinking about the songs that I was raised over.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, "Uptown girl, downtown boy" kind of thing.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm. Yeah. I might be making it
Speaker:Trist: up a little bit but I like the
Speaker:Trist: differences in that intro where
Speaker:Trist: you've got, the South African
Speaker:Trist: group a little more rhythmic
Speaker:Trist: singing Zulu, that's like this
Speaker:Trist: one thing.
Speaker:Trist: And then floating over the top
Speaker:Trist: of it the melody of the other
Speaker:Trist: culture.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: There's just a simple plain melody.
Speaker:Trist: It's not super rhythmic.
Speaker:Trist: It's just kind of floating on top of this thing.
Speaker:Trist: Yet they really work together.
Speaker:Trist: even though they're different
Speaker:Trist: from one another, whether
Speaker:Trist: intentional or not or
Speaker:Trist: subliminally.
Speaker:Trist: I love how that's set up.
Speaker:Trist: She's a rich girl.
Speaker:Trist: He's a poor boy.
Speaker:Trist: I like how those work musically together at the start, just
Speaker:Trist: almost like the a cappella little intro to what we're going
Speaker:Trist: to talk about in the song.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. Another rabbit hole that I went into was the meaning of the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics that were sung in - it looks like a couple of different
Speaker:Elaine: South African languages.
Speaker:Elaine: So as I was taking a look at it, it wasn't just isiZulu, but also
Speaker:Elaine: isiX'hosa I'm going to totally butcher that, but it's the the
Speaker:Elaine: click language X'hosa And it
Speaker:Trist: I feel
Speaker:Elaine: seems
Speaker:Trist: like that.
Speaker:Elaine: like.
Speaker:Trist: I feel like that actually happens more in the other song.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: So,
Speaker:Trist: because there's
Speaker:Elaine: um.
Speaker:Trist: actually some of the clicks and things in "Homeless."
Speaker:Elaine: Huh. So as I was taking a look
Speaker:Elaine: at this and a lot of different
Speaker:Elaine: interpretations of whether it
Speaker:Elaine: was just isiZulu or if it was
Speaker:Elaine: both languages.
Speaker:Elaine: But as I took a look at the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics, it also has another
Speaker:Elaine: subtext to it, because it talks
Speaker:Elaine: about the wealth of this woman
Speaker:Elaine: and how that is unusual and the
Speaker:Elaine: blessings that she had, etc.. So
Speaker:Elaine: it's like building her up in
Speaker:Elaine: some way.
Speaker:Elaine: And then along the top of it, you were saying in English, you
Speaker:Elaine: know, there is this counterpoint that only we like.
Speaker:Elaine: We only understand that part of it.
Speaker:Elaine: But if you take a look at the languages underneath and use
Speaker:Elaine: that as a juxtaposition.
Speaker:Elaine: Holy cows, It just increases with the meaning, right?
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that that's part of
Speaker:Elaine: the beauty of the combination of
Speaker:Elaine: songwriting.
Speaker:Elaine: And I noticed that in the credits there was actually a
Speaker:Elaine: dual credit, not just Paul Simon, but also of the founder
Speaker:Elaine: of Ladysmith Black Mambazo.
Speaker:Elaine: I think his name is
Speaker:Trist: Joseph
Speaker:Elaine: Joseph.
Speaker:Trist: Shabalala.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, there we go, Joseph Shabalala.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I think that he just
Speaker:Elaine: added another dimension to the
Speaker:Elaine: song through the lyrics that are
Speaker:Elaine: sung in these two different
Speaker:Elaine: African languages.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think on both of the
Speaker:Trist: tunes they collaborated with in
Speaker:Trist: there.
Speaker:Trist: it kind of took Paul Simon's
Speaker:Trist: ideas, and then they would kind
Speaker:Trist: of figure out some stuff and
Speaker:Trist: bring it to him, say, here's
Speaker:Trist: this thing that we think would
Speaker:Trist: fit.
Speaker:Trist: And, of course, most of the time
Speaker:Trist: he was like, whoa, blown away by
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Trist: So that is very cool that they worked on that together.
Speaker:Trist: also noted that speaking of that, I read that this wasn't
Speaker:Trist: originally going to be for that.
Speaker:Trist: They had been working on this album and they had traveled with
Speaker:Trist: some singers and players from South Africa to appear on
Speaker:Trist: Saturday Night Live.
Speaker:Trist: And the label decided to push
Speaker:Trist: the album back a little bit and
Speaker:Trist: work on it a little more, and
Speaker:Trist: they're like, hey, while we're
Speaker:Trist: here, let's go and record some
Speaker:Trist: more.
Speaker:Trist: And this is one of the ones that happened right then.
Speaker:Trist: And actually the horn players on it are from SNL.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh!
Speaker:Trist: Uh, the.
Speaker:Trist: So that was the little thing I kind of put together.
Speaker:Trist: I didn't read that part, but I'd read that they had done it just
Speaker:Trist: after this SNL stint, when they realized the album was going to
Speaker:Trist: be delayed and he decided this could go on it.
Speaker:Trist: and then I looked in the
Speaker:Trist: credits, I was like, oh, that's
Speaker:Trist: Lenny Pickett.
Speaker:Trist: He's the sax player on Saturday
Speaker:Trist: Night Live, the one who always
Speaker:Trist: has the really high squealing
Speaker:Trist: saxophone parts.
Speaker:Trist: So he's one of the horn players on there.
Speaker:Trist: I assumed that the trumpet
Speaker:Trist: player was, but I'm not
Speaker:Trist: positive.
Speaker:Elaine: Ah,
Speaker:Trist: I thought
Speaker:Elaine: interesting.
Speaker:Trist: that was cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, that is fascinating.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, I was taking a look at the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics and you were talking
Speaker:Elaine: previously about the different
Speaker:Elaine: types of lyrics, and I took a
Speaker:Elaine: look at it from the perspective
Speaker:Elaine: of what characters are there in
Speaker:Elaine: this song.
Speaker:Elaine: So there is the I character, right?
Speaker:Elaine: So the narrator
Speaker:Trist: Mhm
Speaker:Elaine: and then there's she and him.
Speaker:Trist: mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: So I could see that there are three different people that are
Speaker:Elaine: in this conversation.
Speaker:Elaine: And out of that, I ended up
Speaker:Elaine: coming up with some kind of
Speaker:Elaine: relationship between the
Speaker:Elaine: narrator as well as the two of
Speaker:Elaine: them.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, what really got me was there was a section where we're
Speaker:Elaine: talking about the sign of a teaspoon, the sign of a wave.
Speaker:Elaine: I had to, look that up as well.
Speaker:Elaine: And it looks like that's actually very South African.
Speaker:Elaine: And thinking about the sign of the teaspoon and the sign of the
Speaker:Elaine: wave pointing to two different areas in South Africa, one being
Speaker:Elaine: the city centre and the other one being kind of out in the
Speaker:Elaine: hinterlands or another city.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And that was fascinating because it was like really anchored
Speaker:Elaine: everything in South Africa.
Speaker:Elaine: So South Africa, culture, South Africa, locations.
Speaker:Elaine: Those of us who aren't from
Speaker:Elaine: South Africa, it's just like,
Speaker:Elaine: yeah, well, teaspoon, wave,
Speaker:Elaine: whatever.
Speaker:Elaine: But the more that I look at it, the more I'm like, oh, okay,
Speaker:Elaine: that anchors it.
Speaker:Elaine: Now the other thing that got me was the following verse.
Speaker:Elaine: There was the hey, they ended up
Speaker:Elaine: sleeping in a doorway by the
Speaker:Elaine: bodegas and the lights on Upper
Speaker:Elaine: Broadway.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was like, well, wait a minute, that's New York, right?
Speaker:Elaine: So, are we changing locations?
Speaker:Elaine: And that led me to wonder, are
Speaker:Elaine: we talking about a specific
Speaker:Elaine: woman and man, or are we talking
Speaker:Elaine: about a category of woman and
Speaker:Elaine: man and talking about how
Speaker:Elaine: universal this experience is of,
Speaker:Elaine: a woman who is from uptown, and a
Speaker:Elaine: boy who's from downtown and this
Speaker:Elaine: more universal experience of
Speaker:Elaine: class integration in some way.
Speaker:Trist: Totally. This is exactly what I was getting at with Paul Simon.
Speaker:Trist: There's a great surface meaning.
Speaker:Trist: And then you could create some
Speaker:Trist: more and you can look up and
Speaker:Trist: read other people's
Speaker:Trist: interpretations that you never
Speaker:Trist: thought of.
Speaker:Trist: Same.
Speaker:Trist: And I thought that was interesting learning about the
Speaker:Trist: hand signals, like, flagging down a taxi, the sign of a
Speaker:Trist: teaspoon sends you one place, and they might pass you up if
Speaker:Trist: you make the sign of a wave and they don't want to go that way.
Speaker:Trist: never would have thought of that.
Speaker:Trist: That line would always just sit to me, huh?
Speaker:Trist: I wonder what that means.
Speaker:Trist: And I never really sought it out until we were doing this.
Speaker:Trist: I saw that as well.
Speaker:Trist: That was fascinating.
Speaker:Elaine: Thank goodness for the Internet.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. No kidding.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, is there anything else that you want to talk about in
Speaker:Trist: Well,
Speaker:Elaine: this particular track?
Speaker:Trist: just jumping back, just a little self-referential.
Speaker:Trist: Back to our episode that was about the Michael Jackson song,
Speaker:Trist: "Workin' Day and Night," where we talked about hocket.
Speaker:Trist: It's not quite as complex, but
Speaker:Trist: it occurs in this recording as
Speaker:Trist: well.
Speaker:Trist: Go back and listen.
Speaker:Trist: I told you, the stereo spectrum would be involved.
Speaker:Trist: When we hear the horn parts come in.
Speaker:Trist: Bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup
Speaker:Trist: bup bup bup bup bup bup dubba
Speaker:Trist: dubba dubba.
Speaker:Trist: That's the horn line I'd always heard before.
Speaker:Trist: And, in preparing this, I was listening to headphones myself
Speaker:Trist: and realized that that second dabba dabba dabba dabba.
Speaker:Trist: All of those rhythms, they alternate left and right.
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: Oh.
Speaker:Trist: so now I don't know this exactly, but it would be
Speaker:Trist: possible in post-production for you to pan them.
Speaker:Trist: So it may
Speaker:Elaine: Oh I
Speaker:Trist: have
Speaker:Elaine: see.
Speaker:Trist: been played exactly like I'm singing it, but if you listen to
Speaker:Trist: just one side, you only hear bup bup bup bup bup.
Speaker:Trist: You hear all the off beats, and then you hear the other ones
Speaker:Trist: filled in on the other side.
Speaker:Trist: So either it was played in two
Speaker:Trist: passes and panned either way, to
Speaker:Trist: make it more of like a hocket
Speaker:Trist: where, like, these two parts
Speaker:Trist: create one.
Speaker:Trist: Or it was indeed just played all together.
Speaker:Trist: But then in the production of it, panned it as if they were
Speaker:Trist: two separate parts.
Speaker:Trist: I can't say which one of those it was, but a little bit of a
Speaker:Trist: similarity to what we talked about, about hocket in the
Speaker:Trist: Michael Jackson episode.
Speaker:Elaine: That is fascinating.
Speaker:Elaine: And just thinking about the recording technology that was
Speaker:Elaine: available in the mid 1980s, which is when this was released.
Speaker:Trist: Mmhm.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know if that is.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, that's just a lot of work to do all of that panning
Speaker:Trist: It
Speaker:Elaine: manually,
Speaker:Trist: it
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Trist: could be achieved either way.
Speaker:Trist: I mean, at that time, you still had the ability to program that
Speaker:Trist: in such a way on a board, or you'd have at least someone
Speaker:Trist: ready to go, and do that while
Speaker:Elaine: But
Speaker:Trist: you're mixing
Speaker:Elaine: to
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: do
Speaker:Trist: I don't
Speaker:Elaine: it
Speaker:Trist: know,
Speaker:Elaine: so
Speaker:Trist: hard to tell.
Speaker:Elaine: accurately,
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: that's
Speaker:Trist: That's
Speaker:Elaine: really
Speaker:Trist: true.
Speaker:Elaine: challenging.
Speaker:Trist: Hard to tell.
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: And definitely listening to it in stereo.
Speaker:Elaine: You heard a lot in the choral aspect of as well.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, in just the very beginning there were certain
Speaker:Elaine: voices that were panned left and certain voices that were either
Speaker:Elaine: center or panned right.
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Um.
Speaker:Elaine: it was something that I also heard there as well, just the
Speaker:Elaine: use of stereo.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. And I like how it just returns and ends with the group
Speaker:Trist: as well the kind of vocals and percussion at the end.
Speaker:Trist: Even if we don't get deep into all of this meaning that we're
Speaker:Trist: seeking out of it, it's just really a fun listen.
Speaker:Trist: It's really a great combination, as is the whole album.
Speaker:Trist: Just the melting pot of sounds from all over the place.
Speaker:Trist: You got some on the album, there's some Cajun zydeco,
Speaker:Trist: there's some jazz, there's some pop, all kinds of folk melodies,
Speaker:Trist: all kinds of things.
Speaker:Trist: It's just a great album all around.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, let's close out
Speaker:Elaine: and move on to our next section,
Speaker:Elaine: which is.
Speaker:Trist: My bag.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes. So our mailbag, for those
Speaker:Elaine: of you who would love to get
Speaker:Elaine: ahold of us, we are available
Speaker:Elaine: via email:
Speaker:Elaine: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.
Speaker:Elaine: That's L-O-U-P-E.
Speaker:Elaine: Or that same thing, @themusiciansloupe at both
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram and Threads.
Speaker:Trist: This is a great topic.
Speaker:Trist: So this "Diamonds on the Soles of Your Shoes" song.
Speaker:Trist: Lots of interpretations that we talked about.
Speaker:Trist: So drop us a line and tell us things you hear.
Speaker:Trist: Or maybe if you've ever visited or you know, some other inside
Speaker:Trist: scoop about what some of these lyrics might really mean, or
Speaker:Trist: have your interpretation, we'd love to hear it.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so this week comes from Threads, our favorite place.
Speaker:Elaine: This is an artist named Coco Die from November 2025 and he
Speaker:Elaine: writes: "Unpopular opinion.
Speaker:Elaine: Nearly everyone could learn to play music on a decent level.
Speaker:Elaine: You don't have to be a genius to be a good musician.
Speaker:Elaine: It's easier to say I don't have talent than put hundreds of
Speaker:Elaine: hours into learning.
Speaker:Elaine: If you feel that you would like to try, don't stop yourself.
Speaker:Elaine: You'll be great."
Speaker:Trist: Hmm.
Speaker:Elaine: So I'm kind of curious about
Speaker:Elaine: whether you agree with his
Speaker:Elaine: statement that everyone can be a
Speaker:Elaine: decent musician.
Speaker:Trist: Like most of these questions, I
Speaker:Trist: think that would depend on your
Speaker:Trist: interpretation of what decent
Speaker:Trist: means.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay,
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: so what is your interpretation
Speaker:Trist: to
Speaker:Elaine: of
Speaker:Trist: me,
Speaker:Elaine: decent?
Speaker:Trist: the essence of that concept of what this person is talking
Speaker:Trist: about is just music can be a part of your life.
Speaker:Trist: You can participate in it
Speaker:Trist: regardless of your innate
Speaker:Trist: abilities or particular talents
Speaker:Trist: that seem to just flow from some
Speaker:Trist: people.
Speaker:Trist: most of the time, the most incredible artists, I think,
Speaker:Trist: have some bit of of whatever we call gift or something that
Speaker:Trist: they're just natural at, added to the hours and hours and years
Speaker:Trist: and years and years of practice and application and learning.
Speaker:Trist: It's like the combination of those things.
Speaker:Trist: That's what I think of mostly.
Speaker:Trist: However, our culture and our society has definitely got into,
Speaker:Trist: especially with the competition music shows with your American
Speaker:Trist: Idol, etc., So we put it on TV for everyone to say, hey, here's
Speaker:Trist: what we do.
Speaker:Trist: There's this thing and we're
Speaker:Trist: going to judge it and that is
Speaker:Trist: good.
Speaker:Trist: And these other people are not good, and they do their best to
Speaker:Trist: try to make it.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, it's not about that, but the
Speaker:Trist: example is, oh, there is this
Speaker:Trist: and you other people, you're
Speaker:Trist: off.
Speaker:Trist: You're out of here.
Speaker:Trist: You're not good enough to do it.
Speaker:Trist: It's like this judgment.
Speaker:Trist: Whereas so many cultures have
Speaker:Trist: music as a part of just what you
Speaker:Trist: do.
Speaker:Trist: It's a part of a language.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, at this ceremony with our
Speaker:Trist: family, we always sing these
Speaker:Trist: songs.
Speaker:Trist: After the song, no one's going,
Speaker:Trist: "Ugh, our second cousin Marcy is
Speaker:Trist: the worst."
Speaker:Trist: You know what I mean?
Speaker:Trist: That's not the thing that you do.
Speaker:Trist: You're all singing.
Speaker:Trist: It's a cultural thing.
Speaker:Trist: So part of what I'm hearing about it is.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, don't worry about being judged and, stop Judging others
Speaker:Trist: on their musical ability.
Speaker:Trist: Like let music be a part of your life.
Speaker:Trist: And if you spend some time, I think more surface level of what
Speaker:Trist: this person is saying.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, with some practice, even if you don't have quote unquote
Speaker:Trist: a gift or naturally talented in an area, with enough
Speaker:Trist: application, just like anything in business or anything else you
Speaker:Trist: want to do, people can do it to a level that maybe to me, a
Speaker:Trist: decent level is maybe, like surprising relative to what they
Speaker:Trist: thought they might do.
Speaker:Trist: That's a long answer, but a lot in there.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think I'm similar to you
Speaker:Elaine: in that there is talent and then
Speaker:Elaine: there's cultivation of talent,
Speaker:Elaine: which I think are maybe two
Speaker:Elaine: different things.
Speaker:Elaine: in that people might not feel like they have talent before
Speaker:Elaine: they cultivate it.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think about my experience as a instrumental player
Speaker:Elaine: primarily to begin with.
Speaker:Elaine: So I started out on the piano
Speaker:Elaine: and not really having any vocal
Speaker:Elaine: training.
Speaker:Elaine: And by the time I started singing in choirs, I had a lot
Speaker:Elaine: of music experience, but no training as me as a vocalist.
Speaker:Elaine: And now, you know, a whole lot of time later, I've had a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: experience and had a lot of teaching and had a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: curiosity about what makes my voice an instrument.
Speaker:Elaine: And I been able to cultivate that a lot more because of that.
Speaker:Elaine: I think one of the things I think about is, what does it
Speaker:Elaine: mean to be musical, and how can people participate in music in a
Speaker:Elaine: way that is authentic to them?
Speaker:Elaine: If someone can't, and I've
Speaker:Elaine: definitely been with people who
Speaker:Elaine: they just can't hear the tones,
Speaker:Elaine: they can't hear the difference
Speaker:Elaine: between what is flat and what is
Speaker:Elaine: sharp.
Speaker:Elaine: Maybe something like piano is a really good option for them,
Speaker:Elaine: where it's actually more about hitting the right keys in the
Speaker:Elaine: right order and in the right rhythm, and you end up making
Speaker:Elaine: some great music out of it as opposed to, you know, people who
Speaker:Elaine: are playing violin and those poor parents, bless you, parents
Speaker:Elaine: of young violinists
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: because there's a lot of screeching
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: and there's a lot of out of tunage as people are trying to
Speaker:Elaine: figure out how to play on fretless instruments, you know.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: Those are it's a completely different set there.
Speaker:Elaine: That being said, I think that
Speaker:Elaine: there are certain people who
Speaker:Elaine: have, like you said, innate
Speaker:Elaine: talents.
Speaker:Elaine: A daughter of a friend of mine,
Speaker:Elaine: at age two and age three was
Speaker:Elaine: actually able to hold a tune
Speaker:Elaine: which.
Speaker:Elaine: developmentally, was extremely, extremely advanced for a two or
Speaker:Elaine: three year old.
Speaker:Elaine: Most two to three year olds cannot hold a tune.
Speaker:Elaine: And now she's a great singer.
Speaker:Elaine: She's cultivated that talent.
Speaker:Elaine: But that's something that I think about is oh, you start out
Speaker:Elaine: with something rare.
Speaker:Elaine: And then you end up cultivating that as opposed to something
Speaker:Elaine: that you developed.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. the unpopular opinion this person put out.
Speaker:Trist: I don't, I don't think it's that unpopular.
Speaker:Trist: I think if people really think about it in this manner, it's
Speaker:Trist: like, oh yeah, if you just kind of dedicate yourself to just
Speaker:Trist: about anything, you could be, again, relatively good at it.
Speaker:Trist: You could do it on a decent level.
Speaker:Trist: the big thing there to me is your interpretation of what a
Speaker:Trist: decent level is.
Speaker:Trist: That's all.
Speaker:Elaine: I actually think that, you know, to put it maybe slightly
Speaker:Elaine: differently, I think that people think that talent is the only
Speaker:Elaine: way to get good at something.
Speaker:Trist: Mm-hm.
Speaker:Elaine: And as a martial artist, this is
Speaker:Elaine: something that we see all the
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Elaine: People are walking through our doors.
Speaker:Elaine: They're intimidated because they're not inherently athletic,
Speaker:Elaine: but you're not going to be athletic until you actually put
Speaker:Elaine: the work in.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: that is something that I think is really a little bit more
Speaker:Elaine: challenging for people to think about, like, well, wait a
Speaker:Elaine: minute, is it inherently a talent or is it the result of a
Speaker:Elaine: lot of hard work?
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, you do see this even in
Speaker:Trist: athletics, football players,
Speaker:Trist: basketball players, soccer
Speaker:Trist: players whatever.
Speaker:Trist: There are those that Wow.
Speaker:Trist: From an early age, this person that ended up being a Hall of
Speaker:Trist: Famer from an early age, you could tell that they were
Speaker:Trist: incredible at this and then they worked really hard on top of it.
Speaker:Trist: But then there's also those oh yeah, this football player, he
Speaker:Trist: really just kind of played basketball in high school.
Speaker:Trist: And then in college he thought he would try this out.
Speaker:Trist: and now he's a All-Pro because he really worked at it.
Speaker:Trist: So there's always combinations
Speaker:Trist: of that in different
Speaker:Trist: disciplines.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. So I think that it's
Speaker:Elaine: probably more a
Speaker:Elaine: misclassification of what we
Speaker:Elaine: think the outcome comes from,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Elaine: Like the outcome
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: can come from talent that is cultivated, but it's also, can
Speaker:Elaine: come from just sheer hard work.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. And also in the question like could learn to play music
Speaker:Trist: on a decent level.
Speaker:Trist: That doesn't mean like can learn
Speaker:Trist: enough to make a living doing
Speaker:Trist: music.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe not everybody can do that,
Speaker:Trist: but that's different than just,
Speaker:Trist: oh, satisfactorily.
Speaker:Trist: playing music with some friends
Speaker:Trist: and being able to get through
Speaker:Trist: some songs and enjoy the
Speaker:Trist: camaraderie of making music with
Speaker:Trist: other people.
Speaker:Trist: Anybody could do that, I think.
Speaker:Elaine: I mean, I do want to challenge
Speaker:Elaine: that because I think there are a
Speaker:Elaine: lot of people who are making
Speaker:Elaine: music full time who are kind of
Speaker:Elaine: mediocre.
Speaker:Elaine: Right?
Speaker:Trist: Mmhm!
Speaker:Elaine: Like we're
Speaker:Trist: but
Speaker:Elaine: not talking
Speaker:Trist: they work,
Speaker:Elaine: about.
Speaker:Trist: work, work, and they know how to
Speaker:Trist: promote themselves, and they
Speaker:Trist: have another thing to go along
Speaker:Trist: with it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, again, there's this whole misconception that I'm trying to
Speaker:Elaine: push on, that the best musicians are the ones that are full time.
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that that's
Speaker:Elaine: something that we just need to
Speaker:Elaine: keep ourselves accountable to
Speaker:Elaine: that, you know, there are
Speaker:Elaine: amazing musicians who are
Speaker:Elaine: working part time or, in their
Speaker:Elaine: living rooms right now making
Speaker:Elaine: music.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: So, yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Maybe this is an encouragement to those who are more music
Speaker:Elaine: appreciators, and who want to make music that there is a path
Speaker:Elaine: forward for you, should you choose to take it.
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Just like the person you brought
Speaker:Trist: up.
Speaker:Trist: If you feel you'd like to try, don't stop yourself.
Speaker:Trist: Great advice.
Speaker:Elaine: And and also just an emphasis on
Speaker:Elaine: this is going to take a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: work.
Speaker:Elaine: So
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: set your expectations.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: All right
Speaker:Trist: Good one.
Speaker:Trist: That's a good one this week.
Speaker:Elaine: okay.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Speaker:Trist: That is all.
Speaker:Trist: Thanks for joining us as always.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: See you next week.
Speaker:Elaine: Ladysmith Black Mambazo, And then and then Trist interrupted
Speaker:Elaine: me because he had to hear me say it four times.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, it's time for a refill on all the tea.
Speaker:Elaine: Ugh!
Speaker:Elaine: I can do this.
