Heartbreak, jazz phrasing, and a compact country song: Touch Me (Willie Nelson)
Hear Willie Nelson before the outlaw icon emerged: this episode unpacks the early-country sound of his 1962 recording, “Touch Me.” Trist and Elaine examine his jazz-influenced push and pull against the beat, the influence of big-band television, and the remarkable economy of a complete emotional story in just over two minutes. It’s a compact lesson in groove, lyric structure, arrangement, and how a great songwriter makes every second count.
In the Mailbag, the conversation tackles whether music training is more isolating than theater or dance, and why that comparison misses the complexity of artistic learning. Responding to a Threads post, Trist argues that music, theater, and dance all combine individual skill-building with collaborative work, whether through ensembles, bands, choirs, orchestras, productions, or troupes. Elaine adds perspective from her own path through solo piano study, choir, band, and martial arts, highlighting how different educational models, from private instruction to classroom and ensemble learning, shape musicians differently.
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Yx8_gEnHk
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/2iX3AiE9eWzEZa3iJwEiKG?si=639ecf48d3a54928
- Apple Music - https://music.amazon.com/tracks/B00WNX0CE6/?ref=dm_sh_wmWzoAfL6faFTXcOKfyCDQCds
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/tracks/B00WNX0CE6/?ref=dm_sh_mXyXdQ24Pa0UHePYQ5XW7heDM
Other links
- Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4uCOVpr4NcWT5SGWlZEnnw?si=8j8p7QwlQxmTNNFwFMvCeg
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-from-the-musicians-loupe-s2/pl.u-e98lkxLs9dqEj
- Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/57132299c0b9470dbd67fcab0b41db79sune?ref=dm_sh_LYPlw2RWiTdf09DUmvLHjqGve
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Elaine this week.
Speaker:Trist: Something a little different for us.
Speaker:Trist: Well, we had one similar vein last season.
Speaker:Trist: This is going to be from singer songwriter – maybe you've heard
Speaker:Trist: of him – Willie Nelson.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh. Okay.
Speaker:Trist: However.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes, I definitely have heard of him.
Speaker:Trist: Well, the caveat is it might not be the Willie Nelson you
Speaker:Trist: necessarily think of when you hear me say that.
Speaker:Trist: At first you have a certain picture, you have a certain
Speaker:Trist: aural interpretation, a certain sound that you hear when you
Speaker:Trist: think of Willie Nelson.
Speaker:Trist: And, this is not likely it, because this comes from 1962.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: Tell
Speaker:Trist: a
Speaker:Elaine: me more
Speaker:Trist: younger
Speaker:Elaine: about
Speaker:Trist: man,
Speaker:Elaine: this.
Speaker:Trist: yeah, a younger man.
Speaker:Trist: This song is called "Touch Me."
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so I'm looking forward to listening to this, but before we
Speaker:Elaine: do that, can you remind our listeners how we should be
Speaker:Elaine: listening to music as a part of The Musician's Loupe?
Speaker:Trist: Well, as always, we love that you listen to us in whatever
Speaker:Trist: way, shape, or form you can.
Speaker:Trist: We do like to encourage you to
Speaker:Trist: find a high quality listening
Speaker:Trist: environment.
Speaker:Trist: If you don't normally, take the
Speaker:Trist: extra time to grab the nicer,
Speaker:Trist: expensive headphones.
Speaker:Trist: But we like you to listen to whatever we're doing in the best
Speaker:Trist: way possible if you can.
Speaker:Trist: I will say this week is probably
Speaker:Trist: not as important as the sound
Speaker:Trist: sources.
Speaker:Trist: It's a little older, so you
Speaker:Trist: won't get some crazy sonic
Speaker:Trist: clarity.
Speaker:Trist: But still, the relaxation and the setting of the improved
Speaker:Trist: listening environment is always encouraged by this here podcast.
Speaker:Elaine: So we will leave the links in the show notes for this song.
Speaker:Elaine: Please take a pause, listen to that song a couple of times and
Speaker:Elaine: we'll be right back.
Speaker:Elaine: And we're back.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so I definitely could tell
Speaker:Elaine: what you were thinking when you
Speaker:Elaine: said that it wasn't the Willie
Speaker:Elaine: Nelson that I was thinking
Speaker:Elaine: about, but at the same time, it
Speaker:Elaine: definitely sounded like Willie
Speaker:Elaine: Nelson.
Speaker:Elaine: So I could tell that there were
Speaker:Elaine: elements of it that I now hear
Speaker:Elaine: in the older Willie Nelson, who
Speaker:Elaine: I'm probably more familiar with,
Speaker:Elaine: with the long braided hair and
Speaker:Elaine: the Stetson and not the clean
Speaker:Elaine: shaven guy that is on this album
Speaker:Elaine: cover, which I was staring at as
Speaker:Elaine: I was looking at it through
Speaker:Elaine: YouTube.
Speaker:Trist: The album title actually starts with an ellipses.
Speaker:Trist: So there's the ellipses and then it says, "And Then I Wrote."
Speaker:Trist: This came early in his career, he was a songwriter in Nashville
Speaker:Trist: and had several songs placed with different singers,
Speaker:Trist: including probably most infamously, the Patsy Cline hit
Speaker:Trist: "Crazy," which many of our listeners probably do know.
Speaker:Trist: He wrote that one.
Speaker:Trist: So he had these songs that were hits before the label or an
Speaker:Trist: engineer or producer decided to record him because he did have a
Speaker:Trist: little bit of a different sound.
Speaker:Trist: So again, it's a lot more quote unquote normal from what we
Speaker:Trist: think of currently.
Speaker:Trist: But back then, even though there
Speaker:Trist: was a little more tone in his
Speaker:Trist: voice.
Speaker:Trist: It was a little fuller, a little smoother, a little more natural.
Speaker:Trist: It was still a little odd for the time, and some resisted
Speaker:Trist: recording him, even though he had good songs.
Speaker:Trist: They had his songs placed in other places, and finally
Speaker:Trist: someone decided to record him, and they got this whole set of
Speaker:Trist: songs, many of which had been recorded by others, which is why
Speaker:Trist: the first title of the album was "And Then I Wrote."
Speaker:Elaine: I find it really interesting that you mentioned that.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit more about what about his style
Speaker:Elaine: wasn't normal for that period?
Speaker:Trist: There's a lot of great songs on
Speaker:Trist: this album to me that I really
Speaker:Trist: enjoy.
Speaker:Trist: So picking the one was tough.
Speaker:Trist: I actually went through a few.
Speaker:Trist: I don't like this song as much as some others.
Speaker:Trist: Other than the fact that it really shows off something that
Speaker:Trist: I find fascinating about this.
Speaker:Trist: He grew up in an era listening
Speaker:Trist: to the radio as the main form of
Speaker:Trist: entertainment in his family
Speaker:Trist: home.
Speaker:Trist: Grew up with his grandparents, I believe, and they listened a lot
Speaker:Trist: to the radio shows.
Speaker:Trist: So back to back on the night
Speaker:Trist: that they listened to those
Speaker:Trist: radio shows, they would hear the
Speaker:Trist: Grand Ole Opry, of course, but
Speaker:Trist: then they would hear the big
Speaker:Trist: band shows.
Speaker:Trist: The big band swing bands would come on.
Speaker:Trist: So I think this is a great display of the country songs and
Speaker:Trist: the the country writing.
Speaker:Trist: But the sensibilities of jazz music and phrasing being always
Speaker:Trist: not right on the beat, going a little ahead and a little
Speaker:Trist: behind, especially behind.
Speaker:Trist: He kind of stretches out some of
Speaker:Trist: the phrases on this, and he does
Speaker:Trist: it a little bit on all of his
Speaker:Trist: music, but I felt like this song
Speaker:Trist: really displayed that: a really
Speaker:Trist: cool push and pull of the way
Speaker:Trist: that he sings the line over the
Speaker:Trist: band.
Speaker:Elaine: I see what you're talking about
Speaker:Elaine: when it comes to the
Speaker:Elaine: instrumentation.
Speaker:Elaine: When I first listened to this, I
Speaker:Elaine: wrote down, "This is what I
Speaker:Elaine: would denote as quote unquote
Speaker:Elaine: classic country."
Speaker:Elaine: But I see what you're talking about in terms of his push and
Speaker:Elaine: pull when it came to not necessarily being on the beat.
Speaker:Elaine: I wrote down that the topic really lent itself to not being
Speaker:Elaine: sung exactly on the beat.
Speaker:Trist: Hm!
Speaker:Elaine: And when we talked about Patsy Cline last season, we did talk
Speaker:Elaine: about that slight hesitation, the emotion in her voice and the
Speaker:Elaine: way that she used the timing to really say something about the
Speaker:Elaine: emotion that she was trying to get across during that time.
Speaker:Trist: Even though he might not have
Speaker:Trist: been consciously doing, he
Speaker:Trist: wasn't thinking, oh, I love the
Speaker:Trist: way that those big band
Speaker:Trist: musicians played when I was
Speaker:Trist: little.
Speaker:Trist: It's just in him that it's natural that you would do that
Speaker:Trist: kind of a phrasing.
Speaker:Trist: So having that in his brain as
Speaker:Trist: just a way that you would do
Speaker:Trist: music.
Speaker:Trist: And then him writing those lyrics and wanting to display
Speaker:Trist: and project the emotions that he's going for, like you're
Speaker:Trist: saying, that lends itself to that kind of phrasing.
Speaker:Trist: Also, I remember reading some
Speaker:Trist: kind of anecdote about the
Speaker:Trist: musicians, similar to, the
Speaker:Trist: Wrecking Crew era that I think
Speaker:Trist: we've talked about in a previous
Speaker:Trist: podcast, who played with the
Speaker:Trist: Beach Boys and through the 60s
Speaker:Trist: and 70s, just the house band
Speaker:Trist: that artists would come in and
Speaker:Trist: play with.
Speaker:Trist: That happened big time in Nashville as well.
Speaker:Trist: And so this crew of guys who
Speaker:Trist: probably had already recorded
Speaker:Trist: two albums that day are in, and
Speaker:Trist: here comes this kid doing his
Speaker:Trist: first album.
Speaker:Trist: they're just laying down tempo.
Speaker:Trist: And then this young kid, he's
Speaker:Trist: got phrasing that's going back
Speaker:Trist: and forth and they're having the
Speaker:Trist: hardest time.
Speaker:Trist: I remember hearing something
Speaker:Trist: about guys taking their
Speaker:Trist: headphones off to not have to
Speaker:Trist: hear the phrasing so they could
Speaker:Trist: keep time because it just wasn't
Speaker:Trist: something that they were
Speaker:Trist: accustomed to.
Speaker:Elaine: Going back to the topic of the sound itself.
Speaker:Elaine: One thing that I wrote down
Speaker:Elaine: about the vocals was that all of
Speaker:Elaine: the vocals, the background, lead
Speaker:Elaine: vocals have a bit of an echo or
Speaker:Elaine: a chorus on it, and that led me
Speaker:Elaine: to think a little bit about the
Speaker:Elaine: 1950s sound.
Speaker:Elaine: When I think about the
Speaker:Elaine: background singers, there is
Speaker:Elaine: this sense of 1950s doo wop
Speaker:Elaine: that's happening, or even that
Speaker:Elaine: classic ballad that you heard
Speaker:Elaine: not only in country but also in
Speaker:Elaine: pop that I felt like was so
Speaker:Elaine: popular at that point in time in
Speaker:Elaine: the 1950s.
Speaker:Elaine: And yet this is 1962.
Speaker:Elaine: It is maybe 5 or 10 years later than that.
Speaker:Elaine: So I don't know exactly if what I'm hearing is that Lawrence
Speaker:Elaine: Welk-ification, so to speak.
Speaker:Elaine: You were talking about with the different radio shows that he
Speaker:Elaine: was influenced by whether all of that was brought into this early
Speaker:Elaine: 1960s because of that influence, or do you think that it was just
Speaker:Elaine: overall what was happening in music at that point in time?
Speaker:Trist: Well, the technology and the
Speaker:Trist: instrumentation was as such that
Speaker:Trist: it hadn't evolved like there
Speaker:Trist: weren't as many different
Speaker:Trist: electronics, electronic effects,
Speaker:Trist: electronic instruments.
Speaker:Trist: So that's why there's some similarities in the sounds.
Speaker:Trist: There's only so many options.
Speaker:Trist: Whereas, as time goes on,
Speaker:Trist: there's more and more choices to
Speaker:Trist: go back to earlier sounds or new
Speaker:Trist: sounds, just your choices become
Speaker:Trist: greater as time progresses
Speaker:Trist: technologically.
Speaker:Trist: So even when you're talking about hearing an echo or a
Speaker:Trist: reverb, those in the day were just a big chamber.
Speaker:Trist: So an actual physical space that
Speaker:Trist: they would put a speaker in and
Speaker:Trist: put a microphone at the end of a
Speaker:Trist: big room.
Speaker:Trist: So you'd play the music into some big room where it echoed
Speaker:Trist: around in the chamber, and then the microphone would pick that
Speaker:Trist: up, and then you would add that.
Speaker:Trist: Whereas now there are digital recreations of that.
Speaker:Trist: But back then, you didn't have facsimiles of it, you just had
Speaker:Trist: what you had.
Speaker:Trist: So the originations of those sounds were there.
Speaker:Trist: There's also so many studios, so
Speaker:Trist: there's only so many versions of
Speaker:Trist: the chorusing sound, but really
Speaker:Trist: is basically a reverb, an echo
Speaker:Trist: chamber.
Speaker:Trist: So those sounds are going to be very similar.
Speaker:Trist: They're using the same kinds of recordings, the same kind of
Speaker:Trist: microphones, same kind of tape.
Speaker:Trist: That's why those things would be so similar in their sound.
Speaker:Trist: A good number of singers also.
Speaker:Trist: So rather than the small doo wop group type singers, there might
Speaker:Trist: be 6 to 20 singers, such as the Anita Kerr Singers.
Speaker:Trist: Those kinds of groups are prevalent and those big oohs and
Speaker:Trist: ahs instead of strings.
Speaker:Trist: Might have been a little less
Speaker:Trist: expensive, because there might
Speaker:Trist: not need to be as many of them
Speaker:Trist: and helps fill the background,
Speaker:Trist: which now in a studio, you would
Speaker:Trist: have a keyboard player just play
Speaker:Trist: fat sounds and play big whole
Speaker:Trist: notes of sounds just to fill the
Speaker:Trist: space.
Speaker:Trist: So over time that's evolved.
Speaker:Trist: But back then, that's part of
Speaker:Trist: the technique of just filling
Speaker:Trist: the sound and making it feel
Speaker:Trist: like it had more happening in
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: Can we talk a little bit about the length of the song?
Speaker:Elaine: Because I was really surprised
Speaker:Elaine: to find this song at the 2:15
Speaker:Elaine: mark.
Speaker:Elaine: It was a lot shorter than anything that we have nowadays.
Speaker:Trist: There might have been restrictions on how long you
Speaker:Trist: wanted things to go because they want them to fit certain slots
Speaker:Trist: on radio programs or they wanted it to press better into singles.
Speaker:Trist: I don't know that there was necessarily a limit on how long
Speaker:Trist: it had to be.
Speaker:Trist: As long as it felt complete and
Speaker:Trist: it felt like a full telling of
Speaker:Trist: the tale, why you need to do any
Speaker:Trist: more?
Speaker:Trist: I appreciate that about this.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the reasons I bring that up is that as I took a look at
Speaker:Elaine: the album itself, there were a lot of fairly short songs here,
Speaker:Elaine: so I don't know whether that implies that there was a bit of
Speaker:Elaine: a technology challenge there, or a technology guidance as to how
Speaker:Elaine: long these songs were.
Speaker:Elaine: But as I took a look at 2:15, there was a lot that was
Speaker:Elaine: happening in that 2:15 from a lyrical perspective, as well as
Speaker:Elaine: from a song perspective.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker:Trist: There's a lot to be learned there in terms of being concise.
Speaker:Trist: I suppose with the techniques
Speaker:Trist: and abilities and talents of the
Speaker:Trist: people in that room, they if
Speaker:Trist: wanted to, probably could have
Speaker:Trist: made that song twice as long if
Speaker:Trist: they desired.
Speaker:Trist: But again, it was like, we're in here cutting records or these
Speaker:Trist: are the songs.
Speaker:Trist: This is how they last.
Speaker:Trist: There's no need to add anything.
Speaker:Trist: There's not any full solos, but there's a little melodic break
Speaker:Trist: on the guitar for a second and even a key change, so you got a
Speaker:Trist: lot packed in there.
Speaker:Trist: It tells the story and you get in and you get out.
Speaker:Trist: So, I like the economics of that.
Speaker:Trist: I think it probably felt right.
Speaker:Elaine: I also was really into the economics of this, especially
Speaker:Elaine: from a lyrical perspective.
Speaker:Elaine: As someone who is a former
Speaker:Elaine: English teacher, I definitely
Speaker:Elaine: spent a lot of time analyzing
Speaker:Elaine: things that were much more
Speaker:Elaine: poetry oriented.
Speaker:Elaine: And one of the things that I
Speaker:Elaine: look for in lyrics is a sense of
Speaker:Elaine: repetition.
Speaker:Elaine: Like what words are repeated and
Speaker:Elaine: in what format they're repeated
Speaker:Elaine: in.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that's something
Speaker:Elaine: that really came out in this
Speaker:Elaine: particular one, because
Speaker:Elaine: obviously he says, "touch me"
Speaker:Elaine: repeatedly.
Speaker:Elaine: But there are slight changes in each one.
Speaker:Elaine: So he starts out by touch me, touch the hand.
Speaker:Elaine: And then
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: next line is touch me, touch the arms.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And then third one touch me.
Speaker:Elaine: And then there's a statement
Speaker:Elaine: about this person that he's
Speaker:Elaine: speaking to.
Speaker:Elaine: "Maybe someday you may need to
Speaker:Elaine: know how it feels when you
Speaker:Elaine: lose."
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: so it really begins to paint
Speaker:Elaine: this picture of how he is
Speaker:Elaine: feeling through this one
Speaker:Elaine: statement.
Speaker:Elaine: And this person that he's
Speaker:Elaine: speaking to is close enough to
Speaker:Elaine: touch him.
Speaker:Elaine: So it's not like this is someone who is really far away; this
Speaker:Elaine: person is within arm's distance.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And he then wraps up the stanza
Speaker:Elaine: with, "So touch me and you'll
Speaker:Elaine: know how you feel with the
Speaker:Elaine: blues."
Speaker:Elaine: And I just found that so artful
Speaker:Elaine: in just the condensed lyrics
Speaker:Elaine: because in these few broad
Speaker:Elaine: strokes, he paints this picture
Speaker:Elaine: about how he feels and also how
Speaker:Elaine: the other person feels, because
Speaker:Elaine: the other person doesn't know
Speaker:Elaine: what it feels like to feel the
Speaker:Elaine: blues.
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: And so as he goes into the second verse, he goes into
Speaker:Elaine: "watch me," which is again a similar kind of pattern.
Speaker:Elaine: Touch me, watch me.
Speaker:Elaine: But then he repeats that, saying, "watch the eyes that
Speaker:Elaine: have seen all the heartbreaking pain in the land."
Speaker:Elaine: And so again, just painting this
Speaker:Elaine: picture of how he is feeling as
Speaker:Elaine: a singer, as a narrator in this
Speaker:Elaine: song.
Speaker:Elaine: And then he says something that is really interesting to me.
Speaker:Elaine: "And be thankful you're happy, though standing so close to the
Speaker:Elaine: world's bluest man."
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: So it talks about this
Speaker:Elaine: juxtaposition between the person
Speaker:Elaine: he's talking to, this woman he's
Speaker:Elaine: talking to, who is happy despite
Speaker:Elaine: the fact that he is in this
Speaker:Elaine: tragic circumstance.
Speaker:Elaine: And then another command.
Speaker:Elaine: All of these are imperatives, meaning that he is talking to
Speaker:Elaine: this person and saying, I want you to do this.
Speaker:Elaine: And so this third line is,
Speaker:Elaine: "Don't forget me / Take a good
Speaker:Elaine: look at someone who's lost
Speaker:Elaine: everything he can lose," and
Speaker:Elaine: then goes back to, and circles
Speaker:Elaine: back to: "Then touch me and
Speaker:Elaine: you'll know how you'd feel with
Speaker:Elaine: the blues."
Speaker:Elaine: That entire thing wraps it up in
Speaker:Elaine: a little bow because it starts
Speaker:Elaine: out with "touch me," and then it
Speaker:Elaine: goes to this entire journey and
Speaker:Elaine: then it wraps around with "touch
Speaker:Elaine: me" again.
Speaker:Elaine: And then there's an interlude, key change, and then it repeats
Speaker:Elaine: that last two lines again.
Speaker:Elaine: Despite the fact that it's only 2:15, you get a really clear
Speaker:Elaine: picture of this relationship between the singer and the
Speaker:Elaine: person he's singing to and the tragedy of it all.
Speaker:Trist: And it's a creative, more passive way, instead of just,
Speaker:Trist: hey, this happened to me, this happened to me.
Speaker:Trist: I feel this, I feel this, I feel this.
Speaker:Trist: It's just a cool, creative way
Speaker:Trist: to not do it that way so
Speaker:Trist: plainly.
Speaker:Trist: I feel this way so strongly that
Speaker:Trist: you should probably be able to
Speaker:Trist: feel it.
Speaker:Trist: Just being here.
Speaker:Elaine: And just
Speaker:Trist: just
Speaker:Elaine: being within
Speaker:Trist: just
Speaker:Elaine: proximity
Speaker:Trist: just
Speaker:Elaine: to me.
Speaker:Trist: being with.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, just touch me and you'll feel all of these things.
Speaker:Trist: It's just an interesting, creative way to say all the
Speaker:Trist: things he wants to say.
Speaker:Elaine: And all of this in just two minutes and fifteen
Speaker:Trist: Like you say, and it wraps it all up and it's like, oh, yep.
Speaker:Trist: And it's all done.
Speaker:Trist: It's so cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, anything else you want to say about this before we wrap
Speaker:Trist: Listen to more from this album.
Speaker:Trist: You'll hear some other songs you
Speaker:Trist: know, have been some country and
Speaker:Trist: pop music favorites over the
Speaker:Trist: years.
Speaker:Trist: I love the youth and you can, like I said, right away, it's
Speaker:Trist: like, wait a minute, this voice sounds kind of familiar.
Speaker:Trist: So hope you all enjoyed
Speaker:Trist: listening and will listen to
Speaker:Trist: more, and recognize the
Speaker:Trist: songwriting ability and talent
Speaker:Trist: of Willie Nelson beyond the
Speaker:Trist: outlaw years.
Speaker:Trist: There are many topics and things he's done through his career.
Speaker:Trist: But remember, at the core of this is an amazing songwriter,
Speaker:Trist: who can with just two minutes, touch you and make you feel the
Speaker:Trist: things and relate, which great country music does.
Speaker:Elaine: What a great storyteller.
Speaker:Elaine: And what an American treasure.
Speaker:Trist: That's true.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that, we're going to move on to.
Speaker:Trist: Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right. The Mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: And if you're interested in reaching out to us, you can
Speaker:Elaine: email us at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com,
Speaker:Elaine: that's L o u p e, or you can send us a message on Instagram
Speaker:Elaine: or Threads @themusiciansloupe.
Speaker:Trist: Those would be great places that
Speaker:Trist: you could let us know your
Speaker:Trist: stories or favorite songs about
Speaker:Trist: Willie Nelson or maybe little
Speaker:Trist: anecdotes.
Speaker:Trist: Anybody that classic been around
Speaker:Trist: so long, there are lots of
Speaker:Trist: stories, urban legends,
Speaker:Trist: experiences that people might
Speaker:Trist: have had.
Speaker:Trist: So that's the place we would love to hear from you if you
Speaker:Trist: have anything to add about Mr. Willie Nelson or anything else.
Speaker:Elaine: So this week, our Mailbag comes from Threads, once again.
Speaker:Elaine: This is from The Katie Roxz from October of 2026.
Speaker:Elaine: So before I get into this, this
Speaker:Elaine: is really an agree or disagree
Speaker:Elaine: for this.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay?
Speaker:Elaine: Got it?
Speaker:Trist: Sure, I can play along.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: I can do that.
Speaker:Elaine: Open quote.
Speaker:Elaine: "Music is such an isolating
Speaker:Elaine: discipline compared to theater
Speaker:Elaine: and dance.
Speaker:Elaine: At some point you may come together as a part of an
Speaker:Elaine: orchestra, symphony, choir, or band, but you don't really skill
Speaker:Elaine: train together the way actors and dancers do."
Speaker:Trist: Oh no no no no. Disagree.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, tell me more about that.
Speaker:Trist: Disagree. Well, I mean, sure you could, but in acting and
Speaker:Trist: dancing, you also could be solo.
Speaker:Trist: Those aren't different to me at all.
Speaker:Trist: Again, each of those disciplines
Speaker:Trist: has the ability to, oh, there's
Speaker:Trist: this one man play and you're an
Speaker:Trist: actor.
Speaker:Trist: Then you have to work that all by yourself, and you work on
Speaker:Trist: that and you train on that, or I'm in a troupe of actors.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I work on some skills
Speaker:Trist: myself, but that production or
Speaker:Trist: that show, we still all get
Speaker:Trist: together.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: To me that's the same in all the disciplines.
Speaker:Trist: You can have some solo moments
Speaker:Trist: and everyone works on their own
Speaker:Trist: skills.
Speaker:Trist: That just seems odd to me
Speaker:Trist: "compared to theater and dance,"
Speaker:Trist: you said?
Speaker:Trist: You can have solo dances or you
Speaker:Trist: dance with a bunch of people,
Speaker:Trist: you can play solo or you play in
Speaker:Trist: a band.
Speaker:Trist: It's funny, I think even in the
Speaker:Trist: post, they have their own
Speaker:Trist: answer.
Speaker:Trist: What was it again?
Speaker:Elaine: "At some point, you may come
Speaker:Elaine: together as a part of an
Speaker:Elaine: orchestra, symphony choir or a
Speaker:Elaine: band."
Speaker:Trist: At some point you may come together in a whole theatrical
Speaker:Trist: production or a dance troupe.
Speaker:Trist: You know what I mean?
Speaker:Trist: Like that's the same.
Speaker:Trist: I don't know why I'm upset about
Speaker:Trist: that way that that is posted,
Speaker:Trist: unnecessarily so.
Speaker:Trist: Totally great to have your opinion about that.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker:Trist: Like, oh, music is something you
Speaker:Trist: only do by yourself as opposed
Speaker:Trist: to theater and dance that's
Speaker:Trist: collaborative.
Speaker:Trist: That's the implication that I'm hearing.
Speaker:Trist: I don't understand that.
Speaker:Trist: I feel like all those disciplines would have some self
Speaker:Trist: skill training, but you still need to also work on the skills
Speaker:Trist: of working in an ensemble.
Speaker:Trist: I don't understand how they're different.
Speaker:Elaine: I find it really interesting to
Speaker:Elaine: think through because of my
Speaker:Elaine: musical background.
Speaker:Elaine: I started out mostly playing solo.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't think I played anything more than a four hands duet on
Speaker:Elaine: the piano for a solid ten years.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I don't think I really played anything with an
Speaker:Elaine: orchestra until I was maybe 16?
Speaker:Elaine: And I started pretty young on piano.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I never learned how to work with a conductor.
Speaker:Elaine: I'd never learned how to do any of these other things, but it
Speaker:Elaine: served as a good foundation for all of the group work that I was
Speaker:Elaine: able to do.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, by contrast, when I started in choir, I learned all of my
Speaker:Elaine: technique through choir.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't think that I learned
Speaker:Elaine: anything outside of that during
Speaker:Elaine: those years that I sang with the
Speaker:Elaine: choir.
Speaker:Elaine: And that to me is the opposite experience, because I think that
Speaker:Elaine: there are certain things.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, I think about dance.
Speaker:Elaine: You start out in a dance class with twenty other kids learning
Speaker:Elaine: the same basics, and that just wasn't my experience on piano.
Speaker:Elaine: So I don't know, I'm really torn
Speaker:Elaine: on this, but I also think that a
Speaker:Elaine: lot of kids start out in an
Speaker:Elaine: orchestra just learning their
Speaker:Elaine: instruments.
Speaker:Elaine: Not necessarily doing the
Speaker:Elaine: one-on-one instruction that I
Speaker:Elaine: got, but I also see where that
Speaker:Elaine: comes from, because I think that
Speaker:Elaine: there are certain instruments
Speaker:Elaine: where you may start out solo as
Speaker:Elaine: a way of gaining just the basics
Speaker:Elaine: enough to be able to play with
Speaker:Elaine: other people.
Speaker:Trist: I think I was clear about how much I love that post.
Speaker:Trist: Doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker:Elaine: So I know that you don't
Speaker:Elaine: necessarily agree with this, but
Speaker:Elaine: can you talk about, from an
Speaker:Elaine: educational perspective, what
Speaker:Elaine: different models there are for
Speaker:Elaine: music instruction and how the
Speaker:Elaine: groupness of it helps other
Speaker:Elaine: students?
Speaker:Trist: Again, every individual does have a whatever set of skills
Speaker:Trist: they have in terms of the way that they listen or the way that
Speaker:Trist: they learn or, what I like to call "tools in the toolbox" in
Speaker:Trist: terms of everyone has a different level of the way that
Speaker:Trist: they either read music or just learn music by rote.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes that rote learning comes with other musicians.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes it's just how you learn.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes you develop skills on your own to learn to read.
Speaker:Trist: Sometimes you would learn to
Speaker:Trist: read with other musicians in a
Speaker:Trist: class.
Speaker:Trist: Many of those skills could be learned either way.
Speaker:Trist: So, having lessons with someone
Speaker:Trist: in developing someone's
Speaker:Trist: individual musicality is totally
Speaker:Trist: a thing.
Speaker:Trist: I guess that's the thing is I
Speaker:Trist: don't see them differing from
Speaker:Trist: the other artistic disciplines
Speaker:Trist: necessarily.
Speaker:Trist: As opposed to athletics, where it's like, well, in golf, it's
Speaker:Trist: so much more lonely because you just golf by yourself.
Speaker:Trist: Whereas if you're on the football team, you have to learn
Speaker:Trist: to play with others.
Speaker:Trist: See?
Speaker:Trist: That's different.
Speaker:Trist: And to me, the posting sounds
Speaker:Trist: like it's trying to say like
Speaker:Trist: golf and football is like music
Speaker:Trist: versus theater or music versus
Speaker:Trist: dance.
Speaker:Trist: And I think that's a false equivalence.
Speaker:Elaine: Tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker:Trist: In the sports analogy, like a
Speaker:Trist: tennis player, unless you're
Speaker:Trist: playing doubles, a tennis player
Speaker:Trist: or any of the solo athletes, a
Speaker:Trist: boxer.
Speaker:Trist: A boxer isn't exactly doing a lot of group training.
Speaker:Trist: It's you against another
Speaker:Trist: individual and you're training
Speaker:Trist: by yourself.
Speaker:Trist: Sure, maybe you have partners
Speaker:Trist: you spar with to practice, but
Speaker:Trist: the thing that you're trying to
Speaker:Trist: achieve isn't excellent teamwork
Speaker:Trist: necessarily.
Speaker:Trist: It's you on your own.
Speaker:Trist: And in a golf game, there are a few random international
Speaker:Trist: tournaments that the US plays another country or something, in
Speaker:Trist: like the President's Cup or the Ryder Cup or something.
Speaker:Trist: So that's kind of a bit of a team.
Speaker:Trist: But generally, golf is an individual sport.
Speaker:Trist: You learn your own thing.
Speaker:Trist: You're not getting your skills
Speaker:Trist: good so the team that you join
Speaker:Trist: gets better.
Speaker:Trist: Or you don't have to learn your
Speaker:Trist: golf swing with other people's
Speaker:Trist: golf swing.
Speaker:Trist: You just develop your own set of talents and abilities.
Speaker:Trist: Now it can be the case that you can do music on your own.
Speaker:Trist: "Never had one lesson!" That's an old reference.
Speaker:Trist: So you can do things on your own musically and be self-taught and
Speaker:Trist: learn music on your own, or develop your own thing and then
Speaker:Trist: your whole life doing music.
Speaker:Trist: You only do on your own.
Speaker:Trist: You could do that, but a dancer could do that.
Speaker:Trist: Someone writing one person shows could do that.
Speaker:Trist: It's just not exclusively that.
Speaker:Trist: It's more common that you
Speaker:Trist: develop your individual and then
Speaker:Trist: you also bring it and join it
Speaker:Trist: with others.
Speaker:Trist: And then you have other disciplines to deal with.
Speaker:Trist: And oh, I learned it this way.
Speaker:Trist: They learned it that way.
Speaker:Trist: How are we going to work together?
Speaker:Trist: It's more collaborative and communal, and you need to learn
Speaker:Trist: to work with other musicians.
Speaker:Elaine: I had a visceral reaction to your example about boxing.
Speaker:Elaine: I think partially because of my background with martial arts.
Speaker:Elaine: And for people who don't know, I
Speaker:Elaine: am a 6th degree black belt and I
Speaker:Elaine: am an actively training martial
Speaker:Elaine: artist.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: I forgot to mention, when you're writing negative comments about
Speaker:Trist: the podcast, especially if they're about Elaine, just
Speaker:Trist: remember that particular fact.
Speaker:Trist: That's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker:Elaine: I do know that there are fellow
Speaker:Elaine: martial artists listening to
Speaker:Elaine: this.
Speaker:Trist: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, and part of the reason I
Speaker:Elaine: bring that up is that martial
Speaker:Elaine: arts in and of itself is an
Speaker:Elaine: individual act in the context of
Speaker:Elaine: a community.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that it's inherently community based, especially the
Speaker:Elaine: one that I do, because you really can't do what we do
Speaker:Elaine: without a partner, at least one other person to throw.
Speaker:Elaine: And optimally, a large set of partners that you can work with
Speaker:Elaine: and challenge one another.
Speaker:Elaine: That being said, I do agree with your fundamental premise that
Speaker:Elaine: there is a wide variety of music that might be discounted in the
Speaker:Elaine: sense that, oh, it might not be as community oriented as some of
Speaker:Elaine: the other examples that they have here, and that this other
Speaker:Elaine: area of theater and dance is probably not as communal as they
Speaker:Elaine: think they are.
Speaker:Elaine: So I would agree with you in
Speaker:Elaine: terms of the false equivalence
Speaker:Elaine: here.
Speaker:Elaine: I definitely brought this up because I thought it was worth
Speaker:Elaine: the discussion, especially since we do have a number of different
Speaker:Elaine: educational models when it comes to – how people pick up music,
Speaker:Elaine: how people are introduced to music and making music.
Speaker:Elaine: Everything from in the
Speaker:Elaine: classroom, which we've talked
Speaker:Elaine: about before, all the way out to
Speaker:Elaine: individual instruction.
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that there's a lot of stops in between.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: I've already mentioned two
Speaker:Elaine: different examples from my own
Speaker:Elaine: life where I got individual
Speaker:Elaine: lessons and played solo for a
Speaker:Elaine: long time.
Speaker:Elaine: But now I primarily play in the context of band, in the context
Speaker:Elaine: of ensemble, in the context of singing multiple parts.
Speaker:Elaine: So yeah, I think it's probably more complicated than we think.
Speaker:Trist: There's always exceptions.
Speaker:Trist: And I imagine there might be
Speaker:Trist: something I'm not thinking of or
Speaker:Trist: missing, but that's my general
Speaker:Trist: thoughts on that particular
Speaker:Trist: topic.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that we are going to wrap up for this week.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we end, we would love
Speaker:Elaine: to ask you a huge favor, which
Speaker:Elaine: is to share a playlist or share
Speaker:Elaine: an episode.
Speaker:Elaine: We know that you are music lovers, especially if you made
Speaker:Elaine: it this long and that you also know other music lovers.
Speaker:Trist: That's right.
Speaker:Trist: You could just check out the playlists.
Speaker:Trist: Not trying to indoctrinate
Speaker:Trist: someone into our world here, but
Speaker:Trist: they make good road trip
Speaker:Trist: playlists.
Speaker:Trist: There's a nice variety of stuff, some interesting, different
Speaker:Trist: kinds of songs.
Speaker:Trist: So, if you again, have a music loving friend and want to just
Speaker:Trist: share one of the playlists.
Speaker:Trist: We've put them together in many different platforms.
Speaker:Trist: So they're all listed here in all of our posts.
Speaker:Trist: Share the playlist with someone.
Speaker:Trist: And then, who knows, maybe they want to know more about a
Speaker:Trist: particular song that we covered.
Speaker:Trist: And, then you can direct them to
Speaker:Trist: the podcast that correlates with
Speaker:Trist: that song.
Speaker:Trist: So yeah, please check those out.
Speaker:Elaine: If you're interested in the
Speaker:Elaine: Season 1 playlists, they are
Speaker:Elaine: associated with all of the
Speaker:Elaine: Season 1 episodes, so you can
Speaker:Elaine: crack open one of those episode
Speaker:Elaine: show notes and find the links
Speaker:Elaine: there.
Speaker:Elaine: Otherwise, we'll have Season 2
Speaker:Elaine: linked to this episode in the
Speaker:Elaine: show notes.
Speaker:Trist: Thanks for listening.
Speaker:Elaine: See you next week.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. We survived.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, yep, here it goes again.
Speaker:Elaine: And I had, up until that point, never met anyone who sounded so
Speaker:Elaine: much like a human banjo
Speaker:Trist: Tubes not transistors
Speaker:Elaine: I almost said Slack.
Speaker:Trist: you can't keep sterilizing the good parts.
Speaker:Elaine: because obviously you don't have anything else to say.
Speaker:Trist: Whoa, you have four hands?
Speaker:Trist: You never told me.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm one hundred percent cutting that out.
