A healthy relationship, an unexpected child, and forever: Breathless (CPR)
This week, we dig into “Breathless" by CPR, a group formed by David Crosby and a son he dsicovered late in life. The intricate harmonies, unexpected chord changes, and the interplay between acoustic and electric instrumentation belies the song's artistic depth and emotional resonance. The lyrics use repetition, descriptive imagery, and the metaphorical portrayal of a supportive and joyful relationship.
We discuss how the music industry has shifted over the past 15–20 years, with artists now able to record and distribute music independently, reducing reliance on traditional record labels.
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5roGAz789g
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tBuk5BcGKtR9hFK2iAZoB?si=4f8a9d44101545f1
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/breathless/1501438604
- Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B0DZV354MB?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_A1SGcs4DfJEKxgvoovZCmjUhk&trackAsin=B0DZV2NM9Z
Other links
- Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7gCOF5M0zYS1fBvXgT5ccI?si=7F3yVdEDRRWa_gAArK3AYg
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-reviewed-on-the-musicians-loupe/pl.u-V9D7maah06JNo
- Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/3b47be4937b7490982f4a872db32ec8dsune?ref=dm_sh_AEFZY8KhvSsz1TGoRmasg6zHZ
- Straight No Chaser
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, Elaine.
Speaker:Trist: This week, we have David Crosby.
Speaker:Trist: Did you know David Crosby had a son?
Speaker:Elaine: No.
Speaker:Trist: Did you know David Crosby had a band with his son in it?
Speaker:Elaine: No.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, well, I didn't either, until fairly recently.
Speaker:Trist: And it turns out that.
Speaker:Trist: Yes, I don't know the exact story.
Speaker:Trist: You'll have to get on the interwebs, listeners, and figure
Speaker:Trist: it out for yourself.
Speaker:Trist: But something along the lines of this grown human just shows up
Speaker:Trist: in his life one day and declares that he is his son, and they
Speaker:Trist: find out he's his son.
Speaker:Trist: And not only is he a son of his, but he's very musical and they
Speaker:Trist: decide to have a band.
Speaker:Trist: Why not?
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so you went from he had a son to he had a son that he
Speaker:Elaine: discovered way later.
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, that's
Speaker:Trist: They discovered
Speaker:Elaine: a different
Speaker:Trist: him
Speaker:Elaine: story.
Speaker:Trist: way later.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. It's a way different story, isn't it?
Speaker:Elaine: It
Speaker:Trist: It's
Speaker:Elaine: totally
Speaker:Trist: a good
Speaker:Elaine: is.
Speaker:Trist: it's a good lede for this episode.
Speaker:Trist: And they were called CPR, the initials of the three main
Speaker:Trist: founders of the band.
Speaker:Trist: And the song this week from them is called "Breathless."
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. I'm looking forward to listening to this.
Speaker:Elaine: So before we get into it, can
Speaker:Elaine: you remind all of us how we
Speaker:Elaine: should be listening to music as
Speaker:Elaine: members of The Musician's Loupe
Speaker:Elaine: community?
Speaker:Trist: Well, we love to encourage you to just improve your listening
Speaker:Trist: situation if you can.
Speaker:Trist: We walk through this life quite
Speaker:Trist: often, quite frankly, blessed
Speaker:Trist: with the amazing technology
Speaker:Trist: anymore that you can get pretty
Speaker:Trist: great sound out of pretty
Speaker:Trist: minuscule speakers, but we don't
Speaker:Trist: take the time to improve it if
Speaker:Trist: we can.
Speaker:Trist: So just if you have a moment to stop and put on the better
Speaker:Trist: headphones or get to the good speakers, please do so.
Speaker:Trist: We highly encourage it.
Speaker:Trist: And as always, we are thrilled that you are listening to us,
Speaker:Trist: regardless of the way that you are doing it.
Speaker:Trist: So thank you for, bringing us
Speaker:Trist: into your ears in whatever way
Speaker:Trist: you are.
Speaker:Trist: We appreciate it.
Speaker:Elaine: All right, so we are going to go ahead and leave the links to
Speaker:Elaine: this song in the show notes, and we'll be right back.
Speaker:Elaine: And we're back.
Speaker:Elaine: Oh, wow.
Speaker:Elaine: That one was really, really interesting to listen to.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think it's cool.
Speaker:Trist: Even though it's obviously not all the same.
Speaker:Trist: And it's just one of the three
Speaker:Trist: voices from Crosby, Stills &
Speaker:Trist: Nash.
Speaker:Trist: And it's not the same exact kind of songs or harmonies.
Speaker:Trist: Still, there's something about that character of David Crosby's
Speaker:Trist: voice in there that does catch your ear a little bit every once
Speaker:Trist: in a while, like, oh yes, I do know the sound of that voice in
Speaker:Trist: a bunch of harmonies.
Speaker:Trist: So
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: I thought, that's really cool.
Speaker:Elaine: In listening to this, one of the things that really struck me was
Speaker:Elaine: how musical things were.
Speaker:Elaine: Like, the harmonies were really, really tight.
Speaker:Elaine: Sometimes when you hear
Speaker:Elaine: harmonies, they're a little bit
Speaker:Elaine: sloppy.
Speaker:Elaine: But this was incredible.
Speaker:Elaine: Just thinking about how "on" each one of the harmonies was
Speaker:Elaine: and how precise things were.
Speaker:Elaine: And so just as a vocalist, someone who has sung in a lot of
Speaker:Elaine: vocal ensembles, it was incredible to hear.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I think just unexpected
Speaker:Trist: for me, too, when I first heard
Speaker:Trist: them.
Speaker:Trist: I don't know if I was expecting those particular voicings or
Speaker:Trist: those particular chords.
Speaker:Trist: They're not like super unusual
Speaker:Trist: or weird, but just different
Speaker:Trist: enough from what I was
Speaker:Trist: expecting, which is always
Speaker:Trist: great.
Speaker:Trist: I like some of the twists and turns of the chord changes.
Speaker:Elaine: I want to focus on the chord
Speaker:Elaine: changes because that was one of
Speaker:Elaine: the most interesting things for
Speaker:Elaine: me.
Speaker:Elaine: I felt like every fourth chord was a surprise for me, and that
Speaker:Elaine: was something that I loved.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was a surprise.
Speaker:Elaine: Not that it was out of the key, but that it just went someplace
Speaker:Elaine: that I didn't expect.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And I didn't feel like there was a consistency in it.
Speaker:Elaine: It was like turning the corner
Speaker:Elaine: in a maze and recognizing some
Speaker:Elaine: kind of really surprising
Speaker:Elaine: topiary.
Speaker:Elaine: And, I was just thinking about
Speaker:Elaine: how delightful it was to listen
Speaker:Elaine: to something just so
Speaker:Elaine: interesting.
Speaker:Trist: I just like so many aspects of it.
Speaker:Trist: I like the instrumentation.
Speaker:Trist: I like the colors of those chords.
Speaker:Trist: I like the riff.
Speaker:Trist: Then it goes back to, in the
Speaker:Trist: middle, just a cool vibey intro
Speaker:Trist: sets up a good vibe for the
Speaker:Trist: whole thing, the beginning of
Speaker:Trist: it.
Speaker:Elaine: Let's talk a little bit about the instrumentation.
Speaker:Elaine: I marked it down as primarily
Speaker:Elaine: acoustic instruments, except for
Speaker:Elaine: that little electric solo in the
Speaker:Elaine: middle.
Speaker:Elaine: But it was interesting for me
Speaker:Elaine: because I think we've been
Speaker:Elaine: listening to songs that might be
Speaker:Elaine: a little bit more processed, and
Speaker:Elaine: this one sounded a lot less
Speaker:Elaine: processed.
Speaker:Trist: Indeed.
Speaker:Elaine: We're talking almost a
Speaker:Elaine: traditional jazz trio, plus an
Speaker:Elaine: acoustic guitar.
Speaker:Elaine: And then in the middle the electric guitar comes out.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: What else did you hear in there?
Speaker:Trist: I was expecting maybe there'd be
Speaker:Trist: more later, but I liked the
Speaker:Trist: little pizzicato string parts at
Speaker:Trist: the beginning also setting up
Speaker:Trist: the vibe.
Speaker:Trist: I'm actually now not remembering if I heard them before.
Speaker:Trist: I just love the way that that is in there, the way it sets up.
Speaker:Trist: And then really just that their
Speaker:Trist: voices take up so much of the
Speaker:Trist: sonic space.
Speaker:Trist: There's not a lot of extra instrumentation needed.
Speaker:Elaine: I was listening to the acoustic
Speaker:Elaine: guitar as well as the pizzicato
Speaker:Elaine: part.
Speaker:Elaine: Like that was something that I wrote down.
Speaker:Elaine: I heard the pizz part the second time around.
Speaker:Elaine: And for people who don't know
Speaker:Elaine: pizzicato is the plucked violin
Speaker:Elaine: is it?
Speaker:Trist: actually could work for any string instrument.
Speaker:Trist: They're generally referred to
Speaker:Trist: like, cello, more orchestral
Speaker:Trist: strings, more than like guitar
Speaker:Trist: strings.
Speaker:Trist: But
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: And so, as I was listening to
Speaker:Elaine: that, it caught me by surprise
Speaker:Elaine: the second time around because I
Speaker:Elaine: didn't hear it the first time
Speaker:Elaine: around.
Speaker:Elaine: And the one thing I heard about the acoustic guitar, was that it
Speaker:Elaine: was mixed very treble, and that was something that I did notice,
Speaker:Elaine: because a lot of the sonic space that you were talking about, the
Speaker:Elaine: vocals, the piano, the bass was kind of that mid to low range,
Speaker:Trist: It
Speaker:Elaine: and
Speaker:Trist: definitely.
Speaker:Elaine: the guitar was in this higher range, and it was
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, that makes
Speaker:Elaine: only
Speaker:Trist: sense.
Speaker:Elaine: in the higher range.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think also rhythmically,
Speaker:Elaine: it was doing something really
Speaker:Elaine: interesting.
Speaker:Elaine: It started out with arpeggiation, moved into
Speaker:Elaine: strumming, switched back to arpeggiation, and then switched
Speaker:Elaine: back to strumming.
Speaker:Elaine: And when it was doing the
Speaker:Elaine: strumming, I felt like that was
Speaker:Elaine: much more of a rhythmic thing,
Speaker:Elaine: like it was holding a rhythmic
Speaker:Elaine: center as
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: opposed to holding a melodic or a tonal center, even though it
Speaker:Elaine: is a tonal instrument.
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: So just interesting to think about how the acoustic fits
Speaker:Elaine: within the context of this song.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. And that makes sense.
Speaker:Trist: The shift in texture, likely with a lot of the instruments
Speaker:Trist: like that, you'll do a shift like that to denote the
Speaker:Trist: different sections going from verses to choruses.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the other things that I did notice as well was the
Speaker:Elaine: places where it got a lot less busy, where all of a sudden
Speaker:Elaine: you're holding out notes or something is resonating, you're
Speaker:Elaine: letting it ring.
Speaker:Elaine: And that happened a couple of
Speaker:Elaine: times in the song where it went
Speaker:Elaine: from very, very busy to very,
Speaker:Elaine: very open and then back to busy
Speaker:Elaine: again.
Speaker:Elaine: And that I think was a part of the texture as well.
Speaker:Trist: That makes sense.
Speaker:Trist: As you said, it probably is outlined by what's happening
Speaker:Trist: lyrically in those sections.
Speaker:Elaine: So one maybe criticism that I
Speaker:Elaine: would have is that it really did
Speaker:Elaine: sound very mushy to me in the
Speaker:Elaine: center between the vocals and
Speaker:Elaine: the piano.
Speaker:Elaine: It just felt like it was in the same range for all of it.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was very hard for me to
Speaker:Elaine: distinguish lyrics until I had
Speaker:Elaine: the lyrics right in front of me
Speaker:Elaine: and was listening for those
Speaker:Elaine: specific words.
Speaker:Elaine: Can
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker:Elaine: And, I don't know whether you like it or not, or the role of
Speaker:Elaine: mixing in how we process music.
Speaker:Trist: Well, also sometimes, when
Speaker:Trist: you're doing the mix, it's
Speaker:Trist: difficult to find the mix that
Speaker:Trist: sounds good and as many
Speaker:Trist: listening environments as
Speaker:Trist: possible, whether it's car
Speaker:Trist: stereos, AirPods, small
Speaker:Trist: headphones, big headphones, home
Speaker:Trist: stereos, trying to make
Speaker:Trist: everything even and have good
Speaker:Trist: mastering.
Speaker:Trist: Even that whole riff, bum bum bum bum bum bum, even that just
Speaker:Trist: carries a lot of low end with it in the bass and the piano.
Speaker:Trist: Anytime you're doubling those low parts of the piano and the
Speaker:Trist: bass, and then it's male voices.
Speaker:Trist: So even if the literal notes
Speaker:Trist: aren't down there with it,
Speaker:Trist: something about those vibrations
Speaker:Trist: in the lower mid range, would be
Speaker:Trist: a problem I would have to deal
Speaker:Trist: with all those years touring
Speaker:Trist: with the group Straight No
Speaker:Trist: Chaser, I would be their tour
Speaker:Trist: engineer.
Speaker:Trist: And it's ten male voices, a cappella and almost every room
Speaker:Trist: normally has tones build up right in the low mid range.
Speaker:Trist: A lot of times I used to joke without hearing anything, I
Speaker:Trist: could just kind of cut a bunch of that range out.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes I was so used to that, that a song or two in, I
Speaker:Trist: would realize just by habit, I had dumped so much of it.
Speaker:Trist: I'm like listening and thinking,
Speaker:Trist: man, why does the show sound so
Speaker:Trist: thin today?
Speaker:Trist: Because I just assumed that the
Speaker:Trist: room was going to sound like
Speaker:Trist: that.
Speaker:Trist: So, all that to say that when the lead vocal happens in the
Speaker:Trist: same place, even though there are tricks you can do to try to
Speaker:Trist: pull that out and make it more discernible, it is a place where
Speaker:Trist: you can run into trouble hearing a lyric pop out or a melodic
Speaker:Trist: instrument that lives in that area that you want to stand out.
Speaker:Trist: You have to do lots of other tricks in the mix to get it to
Speaker:Trist: stand out in front of the rest.
Speaker:Elaine: Like what happened with the acoustic.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. In that instance, I'm sure the full range of that guitar
Speaker:Trist: probably also dumped down into there and they're like, okay,
Speaker:Trist: yeah, we have plenty of that.
Speaker:Trist: Let's just cut a bunch of that
Speaker:Trist: thinner and let's accentuate the
Speaker:Trist: top.
Speaker:Trist: That sounds right to me.
Speaker:Elaine: And the right hand of the piano was right around middle C, which
Speaker:Elaine: is pretty much in the middle of the tenor range
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: as well.
Speaker:Elaine: So the lead vocal was sitting
Speaker:Elaine: right on top of where the piano
Speaker:Elaine: was playing.
Speaker:Trist: That's true.
Speaker:Trist: It does.
Speaker:Trist: And that's probably also why even just the little high
Speaker:Trist: harmonic parts of that pizzicato thing at the top, it just
Speaker:Trist: introduces, hey, don't forget there's going to be sound up
Speaker:Trist: here too, eventually.
Speaker:Trist: Just wait.
Speaker:Trist: Almost an acknowledgment:
Speaker:Trist: somewhere in the song, we need
Speaker:Trist: some high frequency things
Speaker:Trist: happening.
Speaker:Elaine: One of the other things that I heard that I think fed into the
Speaker:Elaine: sense of mushiness was how much sustain pedal was in the piano.
Speaker:Elaine: It had that round sound of an
Speaker:Elaine: actual piano, so it wasn't thin
Speaker:Elaine: at all.
Speaker:Elaine: But you heard that ringing, you heard the sustain pedal.
Speaker:Elaine: And for those of you who aren't
Speaker:Elaine: familiar with piano, when you
Speaker:Elaine: hold down the sustain pedal, it
Speaker:Elaine: takes all of the pads off of the
Speaker:Elaine: string.
Speaker:Elaine: So it begins to ring inside of the piano itself.
Speaker:Elaine: And so the sound just keeps on
Speaker:Elaine: going until you let go of the
Speaker:Elaine: damper and then press it down
Speaker:Elaine: again for that next sense of
Speaker:Elaine: ringing.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think that ringing also fed into that sense of, well,
Speaker:Elaine: there's a lot going on and it's all in the same register.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's really hard for me to distinguish the words and
Speaker:Elaine: distinguish the voices.
Speaker:Trist: Sure. And I suppose creatively, it could be even a conscious
Speaker:Trist: choice, like, okay, are we going to forsake the intelligibility
Speaker:Trist: of every single lyric for the vibe and the sound that we want?
Speaker:Trist: Because it has a vibe about it,
Speaker:Trist: a very particular sound
Speaker:Trist: signature.
Speaker:Trist: Just that low mid, almost
Speaker:Trist: creepy, spooky kind of vibe a
Speaker:Trist: little bit.
Speaker:Trist: And if that's what is paramount, then sometimes that might win
Speaker:Trist: out over you understanding all the words on this one line.
Speaker:Elaine: So as we're talking about the
Speaker:Elaine: instrumentation, let's talk a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit about the rhythm,
Speaker:Elaine: because I felt like rhythm was
Speaker:Elaine: such a key part of this song
Speaker:Elaine: itself.
Speaker:Elaine: Can you talk about the beginning?
Speaker:Elaine: You were talking about the riff that you really liked and the
Speaker:Elaine: rhythm that you really liked.
Speaker:Trist: I just like the riff.
Speaker:Trist: It's very simple, but I like
Speaker:Trist: when a riff like that can be
Speaker:Trist: effective.
Speaker:Trist: I know that most of the listeners know what I'm talking
Speaker:Trist: about, but on this it's the doom doom doom doom doom doom.
Speaker:Trist: Bum bum bum bum bum bum.
Speaker:Trist: That happens at several places.
Speaker:Trist: It returns to that.
Speaker:Trist: It's like a little returning theme.
Speaker:Trist: The riff is just a great setup.
Speaker:Trist: Like before any singing happens,
Speaker:Trist: it's just like, "Ooh, okay, I
Speaker:Trist: can't wait.
Speaker:Trist: What's gonna happen?" Like I'm sitting at the edge of my seat
Speaker:Trist: the way that little theme comes through, you're anticipating
Speaker:Trist: what the lyric's going to do.
Speaker:Elaine: The other thing that I wanted to point out was the rhythm itself.
Speaker:Elaine: So the drums itself, it really
Speaker:Elaine: sounded almost like a heartbeat
Speaker:Elaine: for me.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know if you caught that
Speaker:Elaine: as well, but it had this very
Speaker:Elaine: human heartbeat kind of sound to
Speaker:Elaine: me.
Speaker:Elaine: And I felt like that rhythm really helped me anchor into the
Speaker:Elaine: song in a particular way.
Speaker:Trist: And this whole thing, it's got a
Speaker:Trist: very particular way that the
Speaker:Trist: vocal sits in with the rhythm
Speaker:Trist: section.
Speaker:Trist: It's not a typical, absolutely in the pocket kind of a time,
Speaker:Trist: which I think also helps to create the interest in it.
Speaker:Elaine: Let's talk a little bit about
Speaker:Elaine: the lyrics because I think
Speaker:Elaine: you're right in that they do fit
Speaker:Elaine: into the music in a very
Speaker:Elaine: particular way.
Speaker:Elaine: But one thing that I did notice,
Speaker:Elaine: and this is again, a pet peeve
Speaker:Elaine: of mine, I think anyone who's
Speaker:Elaine: listened to this knows that I am
Speaker:Elaine: all about staying on meter and
Speaker:Elaine: making sure that the meter
Speaker:Elaine: matches both the words and the
Speaker:Elaine: melody.
Speaker:Elaine: Songwriter pet peeve, but this one did not.
Speaker:Elaine: This one definitely made meter choices that were a bit unusual,
Speaker:Elaine: which I guess, given the context of the song, makes sense.
Speaker:Trist: Are you talking about how the words are married to the melody?
Speaker:Elaine: When I think about meter, I
Speaker:Elaine: think about the emphasis of a
Speaker:Elaine: particular word.
Speaker:Elaine: If
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: I think about which syllable of
Speaker:Elaine: the word has the emphasis, has
Speaker:Elaine: the downbeat.
Speaker:Elaine: A lot of times that does map to the melody and it maps to what
Speaker:Elaine: is considered the downbeat.
Speaker:Elaine: And so if you have an emphasis
Speaker:Elaine: on a part of the word that we
Speaker:Elaine: don't normally have a downbeat
Speaker:Elaine: on.
Speaker:Elaine: As we are actually saying it out loud, that
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: to me means that it's off meter.
Speaker:Elaine: And so
Speaker:Trist: Okay.
Speaker:Elaine: in this one, there were melodic
Speaker:Elaine: choices that emphasize parts of
Speaker:Elaine: the word that were not natural,
Speaker:Elaine: not the way that you would
Speaker:Elaine: normally speak in American
Speaker:Elaine: English.
Speaker:Trist: That happens in songs sometimes.
Speaker:Trist: It's just kind of like there was no really good choice.
Speaker:Trist: Whenever I hear that, I put
Speaker:Trist: myself in the songwriter and or
Speaker:Trist: the singers spot and I go, oh,
Speaker:Trist: man, that's so weird the way
Speaker:Trist: they do that, as if they just
Speaker:Trist: did one option and never thought
Speaker:Trist: of it.
Speaker:Trist: It's their creation.
Speaker:Trist: I go through all the other ways
Speaker:Trist: it could be done and usually go
Speaker:Trist: through a whole cycle of them
Speaker:Trist: and go, yep, the one they chose
Speaker:Trist: is the only one that really kind
Speaker:Trist: of works.
Speaker:Trist: Who knew that the artists would do something that just was the
Speaker:Trist: best that they could get away with in that moment.
Speaker:Elaine: You're talking about like what you are particular about.
Speaker:Elaine: That's the kind of thing that
Speaker:Elaine: drives me nuts, knowing that I
Speaker:Elaine: actually struggle with choosing
Speaker:Elaine: the right word that fits into
Speaker:Elaine: the meter.
Speaker:Elaine: That's actually a big part of the songwriting process for me.
Speaker:Elaine: And sometimes I'll dump out an entire lyric because it doesn't
Speaker:Elaine: work rhythmically with what I'm trying to do.
Speaker:Trist: Again, it's for everyone to choose what's paramount.
Speaker:Trist: The vibe, the melody, the vowel,
Speaker:Trist: the sound, the phrase, the
Speaker:Trist: lyric.
Speaker:Trist: Like, what's the most important thing there?
Speaker:Trist: So there was some little things
Speaker:Trist: like that, that bug you in this
Speaker:Trist: one, huh?
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, it does, but if I take a look at the words themselves, I
Speaker:Elaine: definitely see a lot of really great artistry here.
Speaker:Elaine: I think about the use of repetition.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm seeing the word "breathless" used multiple times
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: as a repetition in the second
Speaker:Elaine: and fourth line in the chorus
Speaker:Elaine: itself.
Speaker:Elaine: And it is also a set of lyrics that are very descriptive.
Speaker:Elaine: I've talked a bit about the word pictures that lyrics often paint
Speaker:Elaine: and because lyrics are such a condensed art form, it is one of
Speaker:Elaine: those things where you can't paint everything in as many
Speaker:Elaine: words as you want.
Speaker:Elaine: You have a limited number of words to describe exactly what
Speaker:Elaine: you're going for.
Speaker:Trist: Right. That's a trick, right?
Speaker:Trist: Try to do that as best you can in as little as possible.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: And so as I take a look at the pre-chorus, I take a look at
Speaker:Elaine: each one of these verses.
Speaker:Elaine: It tells you a bit about a feeling.
Speaker:Elaine: It doesn't tell you about specifics, like previous songs
Speaker:Elaine: that we've done have talked very much about specific visuals and
Speaker:Elaine: the visual picture helps you to understand what's going on.
Speaker:Elaine: This one is describing feelings.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it starts out with this
Speaker:Elaine: dance we do leaves me
Speaker:Elaine: breathless, and it really is
Speaker:Elaine: talking about this metaphorical
Speaker:Elaine: dance and the fact that the
Speaker:Elaine: singer is feeling really off
Speaker:Elaine: balance, right?
Speaker:Elaine: "Reeling on the edge of falling down."
Speaker:Elaine: But one thing that I found really sweet about this song was
Speaker:Elaine: the description of the relationship that the singer or
Speaker:Elaine: the singers, I guess, have with this other person.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think about, the characters you have the you, I
Speaker:Elaine: and the we.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it's talking about this
Speaker:Elaine: relationship that this couple
Speaker:Elaine: has.
Speaker:Elaine: It talks about "you try to walk and step and stumble, laughing.
Speaker:Elaine: You hold each other up to stop the fall."
Speaker:Elaine: And I think those two lines in
Speaker:Elaine: and of itself showed me what
Speaker:Elaine: type of relationship they were
Speaker:Elaine: talking about.
Speaker:Elaine: It's very supportive.
Speaker:Elaine: If one person falls, you're
Speaker:Elaine: trying to help the other person
Speaker:Elaine: up.
Speaker:Elaine: And at the same time, when you stumble, you're laughing.
Speaker:Elaine: It's not something where someone
Speaker:Elaine: stumbles and someone else is
Speaker:Elaine: angry.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think about that just in
Speaker:Elaine: those few words, how it paints
Speaker:Elaine: the picture of this relationship
Speaker:Elaine: that is joyful, that is
Speaker:Elaine: supportive, that is really
Speaker:Elaine: trying to walk through life
Speaker:Elaine: together.
Speaker:Elaine: That's orbiting one another,
Speaker:Elaine: that's magnetized to one
Speaker:Elaine: another.
Speaker:Elaine: What a beautiful thing that is.
Speaker:Elaine: And so just looking at these lyrics.
Speaker:Elaine: I would give it definitely like an A minus.
Speaker:Elaine: If I were to grade it because
Speaker:Elaine: the meter thing just drives me
Speaker:Elaine: nuts.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: But I think that there are so
Speaker:Elaine: many good things about these
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics that help me feel like
Speaker:Elaine: there's a lot in there for us to
Speaker:Elaine: dig into.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a meatiness in it.
Speaker:Elaine: I know we've also talked about some songs where it's like, what
Speaker:Elaine: you see is what you get.
Speaker:Elaine: It's very on the surface, and then there are others that are a
Speaker:Elaine: lot more artistic or descriptive or lyrical in
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: a way that really touches us deeply.
Speaker:Elaine: I think
Speaker:Trist: Or
Speaker:Elaine: this falls into the second.
Speaker:Trist: yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Or have, multiple layers, multiple things that you can get
Speaker:Trist: out of it.
Speaker:Trist: I'm curious, did you notice that in the chorus, it says a bell
Speaker:Trist: once struck and then the next time it says love is a bell.
Speaker:Elaine: Yes.
Speaker:Trist: It doesn't say love is a bell.
Speaker:Trist: Love is a bell.
Speaker:Elaine: Mm.
Speaker:Trist: So that's an interesting just
Speaker:Trist: because of the way that it's
Speaker:Trist: sung.
Speaker:Trist: Love is a bell.
Speaker:Trist: The word, "uh," is kind of an uglier thing to sing.
Speaker:Trist: If it
Speaker:Elaine: Right.
Speaker:Trist: was it literally just a sonic choice because
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: a kind of rings more.
Speaker:Elaine: I looked at that and I was like,
Speaker:Elaine: that's an oxymoron, because if
Speaker:Elaine: you hold a bell, it stops
Speaker:Elaine: ringing.
Speaker:Elaine: So what do you mean it keeps on ringing?
Speaker:Elaine: This is my literal self, right?
Speaker:Elaine: My engineer brain is like, whoa, whoa, what do you mean?
Speaker:Elaine: But I think once it got into the metaphor where it said, once it
Speaker:Elaine: starts ringing, the closer you get, it gets louder.
Speaker:Elaine: And I'm like, okay, I'm willing to accept that oxymoron.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, one thing that I noticed that I don't know if you caught,
Speaker:Elaine: but at the very, very end, it repeats the third line.
Speaker:Elaine: That line that you just called out.
Speaker:Elaine: Love is a
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: bell, once
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: rung will ring forever.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: That forever is the last word.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: they hold it out forever.
Speaker:Elaine: And it's like they're holding
Speaker:Elaine: out that "Er" all the way out to
Speaker:Elaine: the end.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Trist: Forever
Speaker:Elaine: it's
Speaker:Trist: and
Speaker:Elaine: like,
Speaker:Trist: ever.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know, sixteen bars later,
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: they're still singing that.
Speaker:Trist: And as you said, the piano is held open, the cymbals ring like
Speaker:Trist: so it could just go on forever.
Speaker:Trist: They do everything they can at the end to not stifle anything
Speaker:Trist: and to let it do that.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: I thought that was pretty neat.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. I enjoyed this one.
Speaker:Elaine: All right.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, any last thoughts before we move on?
Speaker:Trist: No. That's it.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. So with that, we are going to shift over to.
Speaker:Trist: The mail bag?
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: The mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: If you'd love to contribute to
Speaker:Elaine: the mailbag or just let us know
Speaker:Elaine: what you think, please email us
Speaker:Elaine: at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com
Speaker:Elaine: That's L o u p e, or you can
Speaker:Elaine: message us on Instagram or
Speaker:Elaine: Threads @themusiciansloupe.
Speaker:Trist: You can drop us a line and let us know if you've heard this
Speaker:Trist: band before, or if you actually know more stories about how they
Speaker:Trist: were put together or how David Crosby found the son that he
Speaker:Trist: didn't know he had.
Speaker:Trist: If you have more info about that, please let us know.
Speaker:Trist: Or if you just have any other
Speaker:Trist: ideas about some things we
Speaker:Trist: should cover.
Speaker:Trist: So let us know.
Speaker:Trist: Those are the places you can get ahold of us.
Speaker:Trist: Please do so.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, so this week's mailbag comes from Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: It's from
Speaker:Elaine: @thescottyfraizerofficial it's Scotty
Speaker:Elaine: Fraizer from November of 2025.
Speaker:Elaine: And
Speaker:Elaine: he writes, "I'm no music industry
Speaker:Elaine: expert here, but I've just
Speaker:Elaine: got to ask, why is everyone so
Speaker:Elaine: hung up on getting a record deal
Speaker:Elaine: and wanting one so bad, especially
Speaker:Elaine: when many of them out there
Speaker:Elaine: are basically designed to exploit
Speaker:Elaine: the artist?" There were a
Speaker:Elaine: lot of responses to this, but I'd
Speaker:Elaine: love to hear your feedback on
Speaker:Elaine: it. I
Speaker:Elaine: think a lot of the feedback will probably be pretty similar.
Speaker:Trist: Something that strikes me is
Speaker:Trist: that this is only the end of
Speaker:Trist: '25.
Speaker:Trist: So it's not like that long ago.
Speaker:Trist: It's evolved so much that I don't know anyone hung up on
Speaker:Trist: getting a record deal.
Speaker:Trist: So many times now, there's not much more they can do for you
Speaker:Trist: that you can't do for yourself.
Speaker:Trist: Not that it can't be helpful, but I don't feel like I happen
Speaker:Trist: to know a lot of bands or musical entities who are hung up
Speaker:Trist: on getting a record deal.
Speaker:Trist: They're just not.
Speaker:Trist: They're hung up on making music and figure out how they're going
Speaker:Trist: to distribute it, because they can't do it like in the old days
Speaker:Trist: when there was record deals.
Speaker:Trist: We've talked about this a lot on this show.
Speaker:Trist: You're not at the mercy of a record company.
Speaker:Trist: Back in the day, you kind of needed the record company
Speaker:Trist: because they were also your bank that would loan you the money.
Speaker:Trist: You needed the money because it was really difficult to record
Speaker:Trist: anything at a high quality.
Speaker:Trist: And so you needed money to pay the studio to record something
Speaker:Trist: in a high quality.
Speaker:Trist: Well, that's changed so much and you can just do it in your
Speaker:Trist: bedroom, or at your house.
Speaker:Trist: So we don't need that part of it.
Speaker:Trist: We can make this great art on
Speaker:Trist: our own so we don't need them,
Speaker:Trist: and the distribution channels
Speaker:Trist: with the Internet is all
Speaker:Trist: changed.
Speaker:Trist: So all that stuff has changed so much.
Speaker:Trist: The things that we desire from what a label used to do for us
Speaker:Trist: are still the same desires.
Speaker:Trist: It's just in some ways become more complicated to find them,
Speaker:Trist: but easier that you don't have to have the acceptance of a
Speaker:Trist: small number of people that happen to work at one of the few
Speaker:Trist: labels to make you be able to do the thing you want to do.
Speaker:Trist: You can still do it.
Speaker:Trist: You just have to do all the work yourself.
Speaker:Elaine: Let's pick that apart a little bit because that was so chock
Speaker:Elaine: full of information there.
Speaker:Elaine: Let's start out by: when do you
Speaker:Elaine: think we made that turn as an
Speaker:Elaine: industry?
Speaker:Trist: In some ways it's not fully changed.
Speaker:Trist: It's not absolutely gone.
Speaker:Trist: There's still some of that thing.
Speaker:Trist: And again, the things that they did and do for you are still
Speaker:Trist: needed to be done.
Speaker:Trist: It's just they're not the ones always doing them.
Speaker:Trist: I don't know, it's been fifteen or twenty years?
Speaker:Elaine: So certainly I understand distribution.
Speaker:Elaine: It is a lot easier to distribute nowadays.
Speaker:Elaine: But I also think that there are avenues that most artists don't
Speaker:Elaine: have access to.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't know how relevant they are though.
Speaker:Elaine: So the types of things that I think a record label or the
Speaker:Elaine: types of industry connections can get you, like if you walk in
Speaker:Elaine: and you don't have any industry connections whatsoever, you just
Speaker:Elaine: have a big social following or something like that, right?
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly you can directly distribute your music to them.
Speaker:Elaine: There's also the types of things around Grammys or the other
Speaker:Elaine: types of award shows that I think also highlight music.
Speaker:Elaine: Some people certainly follow the
Speaker:Elaine: awards and say, oh, that's
Speaker:Elaine: actually a discovery opportunity
Speaker:Elaine: for people.
Speaker:Elaine: So television, getting onto shows like placement in shows,
Speaker:Elaine: do those also pick up what we would traditionally call an
Speaker:Elaine: indie type of artist?
Speaker:Trist: Well, here's the thing.
Speaker:Trist: What's never changed is you're
Speaker:Trist: trying to get your music in
Speaker:Trist: places where the most people can
Speaker:Trist: hear it, but because there's
Speaker:Trist: been a change in places you can
Speaker:Trist: hear music.
Speaker:Trist: It's not just waiting by the
Speaker:Trist: radio with your tape deck for
Speaker:Trist: them to play that one song you
Speaker:Trist: like, so you can hit record and
Speaker:Trist: have on your cassette tape from
Speaker:Trist: the radio.
Speaker:Trist: Or there's not just X number of TV stations with a late night
Speaker:Trist: show that have the artists on, which are directly related to
Speaker:Trist: the ten labels that exist that have just a running: "Cool.
Speaker:Trist: Hey, Warner Brothers, when are you sending your next artists
Speaker:Trist: over?" It's just like there's a whole system at play.
Speaker:Trist: And of course, eventually as it got broken up, we were hearing
Speaker:Trist: how there's a lot of pay to play, a lot of money going to a
Speaker:Trist: lot of people that aren't the artists just to get the music on
Speaker:Trist: certain TV shows, on certain radio shows, certain radio
Speaker:Trist: programmers would have an entire part of a country where if the
Speaker:Trist: label paid them enough money, they would feed those songs to
Speaker:Trist: the different radio stations in an entire area.
Speaker:Trist: That doesn't have anything with the great band from down the
Speaker:Trist: street that's amazing, but they don't have that contact.
Speaker:Trist: Prior to that, they never left your block.
Speaker:Trist: Now they can record it on their own and get the following and
Speaker:Trist: get listeners that way.
Speaker:Trist: I'm talking in circles here
Speaker:Trist: about this, but because the
Speaker:Trist: whole thing has changed, there
Speaker:Trist: isn't easy plug and play, like
Speaker:Trist: get a label, they put it through
Speaker:Trist: all the systems, and now it's in
Speaker:Trist: all the places where you can
Speaker:Trist: hear it.
Speaker:Trist: You know, like there's so many amazing places to find
Speaker:Trist: entertainment and have this music placed, that's the trick.
Speaker:Trist: Like, is it all streamed?
Speaker:Trist: How do you get it in front of people?
Speaker:Trist: That's the big trick now.
Speaker:Elaine: I think there is a perception
Speaker:Elaine: that the music label would help
Speaker:Elaine: you with scale and could also
Speaker:Elaine: help you with things like
Speaker:Elaine: marketing, although you could
Speaker:Elaine: also hire your own staff to do
Speaker:Elaine: marketing.
Speaker:Elaine: So that's not something
Speaker:Trist: Yes.
Speaker:Elaine: that you definitely need to
Speaker:Trist: Yeah,
Speaker:Elaine: rely on a label to
Speaker:Trist: yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: do.
Speaker:Trist: This is a place that a label can still be helpful.
Speaker:Trist: They're still functional and
Speaker:Trist: still can do incredible things
Speaker:Trist: for an artist, but even they
Speaker:Trist: have to be creative and figure
Speaker:Trist: out new ways, because they don't
Speaker:Trist: just have the three to five
Speaker:Trist: spots, they just put something
Speaker:Trist: out and wipe their hands of it,
Speaker:Trist: and it does the work they have
Speaker:Trist: to do.
Speaker:Trist: They can be very useful, but they have to be more creative
Speaker:Trist: now than ever also.
Speaker:Elaine: It's definitely something to
Speaker:Elaine: think about, especially with
Speaker:Elaine: what we've been talking about
Speaker:Elaine: the democratization.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think, though, that the
Speaker:Elaine: whole marketing game is
Speaker:Elaine: something that is hugely
Speaker:Elaine: complex.
Speaker:Elaine: And so if you can rely on experts on this, again, like I
Speaker:Elaine: said before, that is something that we can just go ahead and
Speaker:Elaine: learn more and do more and experiment more on our own.
Speaker:Elaine: So it is just something for us to think about, in terms of what
Speaker:Elaine: is the value?
Speaker:Elaine: Is it something that even people should aspire to, and what
Speaker:Elaine: benefit do they bring?
Speaker:Elaine: Especially if we can do it yourself.
Speaker:Elaine: And maybe it is one of those
Speaker:Elaine: things where it just allows you
Speaker:Elaine: to concentrate more on just
Speaker:Elaine: making music and being in the
Speaker:Elaine: right place at the right time,
Speaker:Elaine: and someone else manages your
Speaker:Elaine: time.
Speaker:Elaine: And that also comes with downsides.
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly we've seen things in the past, about how locked in
Speaker:Elaine: artists were with contracts that could be exploitative and what
Speaker:Elaine: that meant for their music.
Speaker:Elaine: And also there are parallels in other industries as well.
Speaker:Elaine: We've talked about the book
Speaker:Elaine: industry before, and I think
Speaker:Elaine: that's something that is
Speaker:Elaine: somewhat similar, where if you
Speaker:Elaine: sell a book to a publisher, you
Speaker:Elaine: get an advance and that helps
Speaker:Elaine: you tide over until you complete
Speaker:Elaine: the book.
Speaker:Elaine: They expect you to have your own marketing presence, but in terms
Speaker:Elaine: of booking tours, talking to people, getting larger stages,
Speaker:Elaine: those are things that a publishing house can open doors
Speaker:Elaine: for you that you wouldn't have necessarily been able to get by
Speaker:Elaine: yourself on your own marketing.
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: Any last thoughts before we wrap up here?
Speaker:Trist: I know we'll hit versions of this topic throughout the pod.
Speaker:Trist: I think at the end of the day, I would like to think that it's
Speaker:Trist: the case that if you're just really good, that's usually the
Speaker:Trist: most important thing.
Speaker:Trist: If you're that good, you will find an audience.
Speaker:Trist: So don't forget that: adding value and improving your
Speaker:Trist: abilities and improving your artistic output is never going
Speaker:Trist: to let you down.
Speaker:Elaine: I think I agree in principle, but at the same time, I've seen
Speaker:Elaine: far too many examples where it hasn't been the case.
Speaker:Elaine: And so maybe I'm a little more jaded than you are on this, but
Speaker:Elaine: I'm willing to hold out hope.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, no, there's hundreds of amazing artists that no one ever
Speaker:Trist: hears, and it's depressing.
Speaker:Trist: I just try not to talk about it
Speaker:Trist: that way because it's
Speaker:Trist: depressing.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, I think that we also need to remain committed and in some
Speaker:Elaine: ways it enables us to be realistic, pragmatic and also
Speaker:Elaine: know that there is a path forward and that with the luck
Speaker:Elaine: and the algorithm and friends and family supporting you, and
Speaker:Elaine: also maybe even a change in definition of what success
Speaker:Elaine: means, that is something that we've talked about as well.
Speaker:Trist: Yep, that's a big one.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: And with that, we're going to wrap up this week.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we do, we have a big favor to ask of you.
Speaker:Elaine: We would love for you to share an episode with a friend.
Speaker:Elaine: We know that our listeners are music lovers and we know that
Speaker:Elaine: you know other music lovers.
Speaker:Elaine: So if you have an episode that
Speaker:Elaine: you really love, please share it
Speaker:Elaine: with a friend because we would
Speaker:Elaine: love to have more listeners join
Speaker:Elaine: our community.
Speaker:Trist: If you liked this particular episode, this song, or you look
Speaker:Trist: through the episodes and you see a song that a friend of yours
Speaker:Trist: might be interested in knowing about, or if you want to just
Speaker:Trist: look through them on one of the playlists on the songs that we
Speaker:Trist: source from these different carriers, please look at the
Speaker:Trist: lists and maybe send the whole list to a friend and they can
Speaker:Trist: then choose if there's a song they're interested in.
Speaker:Trist: We'd love you to share it with those who might be into it.
Speaker:Trist: Appreciate it.
Speaker:Elaine: Definitely.
Speaker:Elaine: So thank you for joining us.
Speaker:Elaine: We will see you next week.
Speaker:Elaine: Sorry. My voice cracked.
Speaker:Elaine: Um, they're definitely- Cracked again.
Speaker:Trist: I was like, oh, that ruins my next question.
Speaker:Trist: I was like, you had a very simple job, Elaine.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, another thing I got to mute.
Speaker:Elaine: Sorry, I need to pause for a moment apparently my family's
Speaker:Elaine: blowing up my phone.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm waiting for you to stop
Speaker:Elaine: laughing so that I could
Speaker:Elaine: actually get like a clean take
Speaker:Elaine: on this.
Speaker:Trist: I wanted to say set lists
Speaker:Elaine: Thank you, Fletcher.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm waiting for you to stop
Speaker:Elaine: laughing so that I could
Speaker:Elaine: actually get like a clean take
Speaker:Elaine: on this.
