New wave, gospel, and loud hotel gossip: Badman’s Song (Tears for Fears)
Listen to the song
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92FRHjqY-WI
- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/10QGEFiAS7ANZ8jLqEkKOE?si=0de83e5028dd4698
- Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/bad-mans-song/1527555433
- Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B08FTDNVPY?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_EkGTvVs5mPjm77WaMZQwNFsl6&trackAsin=B08FTDCT55
Key takeaways
- Trist and Elaine discuss the unique stylistic departure of "Badman's Song" from Tears for Fears' typical new wave sound, highlighting its jazz, blues, and gospel influences, as well as its multi-movement structure reminiscent of classical music
- Elaine and Trist analyze the song's lyrics, focusing on themes of sinfulness, redemption, and self-reflection, with references to church language and personal experiences, and the lyrics’ relationship to the gospel feel and Oleta Adams’ inclusion as a guest artist
- Trist and Elaine dig into the topic live performance versus practicing alone, emphasizing the unique lessons learned on stage that cannot be replicated in a practice setting, while also acknowledging the importance of preparation and discipline during solo practice
About us
Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.
As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.
Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.
Transcript
Elaine: Hey, Trist!
Speaker:Elaine: What do we have this week?
Speaker:Trist: This week.
Speaker:Trist: We have a very cool band that I've always enjoyed, the band
Speaker:Trist: Tears for Fears.
Speaker:Elaine: Ohhh, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: New wave.
Speaker:Elaine: Got it.
Speaker:Trist: Well, yes, that's an easy
Speaker:Trist: instant thought and little
Speaker:Trist: cubbyhole that you might put
Speaker:Trist: them into.
Speaker:Elaine: Mhm.
Speaker:Trist: not this week's listen.
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: Ah.
Speaker:Trist: this particular tune, as many I like to do, not a stylistic
Speaker:Trist: sound that you would expect when you hear that we're going to
Speaker:Trist: have Tears for Fears today.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, cool.
Speaker:Elaine: So what are we listening to?
Speaker:Trist: This is, "Badman's Song."
Speaker:Elaine: Oh!
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, I've never heard of this before.
Speaker:Elaine: Certainly
Speaker:Trist: Yep.
Speaker:Elaine: not one of the ones that was very popular.
Speaker:Trist: So yeah, not on one of the
Speaker:Trist: albums that you probably know of
Speaker:Trist: the most.
Speaker:Trist: This is on, I believe, the third
Speaker:Trist: album called The Seeds of Love,
Speaker:Trist: the album just after the big,
Speaker:Trist: big hits.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, cool.
Speaker:Trist: The fun thing about that,
Speaker:Trist: historically, you have big
Speaker:Trist: enough hit songs on big records
Speaker:Trist: like that.
Speaker:Trist: The label kind of thinks you can do no wrong, and they give you
Speaker:Trist: more time and more money and more artistic license.
Speaker:Trist: And sometimes that's beneficial
Speaker:Trist: to us listeners and sometimes
Speaker:Trist: it's not.
Speaker:Trist: I think in this case it was beneficial.
Speaker:Trist: They got to do some other things than the right inside the lines
Speaker:Trist: that we'd always heard.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, well, I can't wait to listen to it.
Speaker:Elaine: We're going to drop the links to the song into the show notes.
Speaker:Elaine: But before we pause to listen to
Speaker:Elaine: the song, Trist, can you remind
Speaker:Elaine: us how we should be listening to
Speaker:Elaine: music as we're trying to focus
Speaker:Elaine: on listening to music like a
Speaker:Elaine: musician?
Speaker:Trist: Well, as always, love to say thank you for listening.
Speaker:Trist: Wherever you are, we appreciate having you.
Speaker:Trist: And if you do have the ability to listen in a better way, in
Speaker:Trist: nicer headphones, in nicer speakers, especially this week
Speaker:Trist: will be beneficial.
Speaker:Trist: It's a little bit of a longer listen.
Speaker:Trist: So please accommodate that if you are able.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. And with that, we'll see you in just a moment.
Speaker:Elaine: And we are back.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. That was a complete trip.
Speaker:Elaine: Like it was.
Speaker:Elaine: I don't want to say all over the
Speaker:Elaine: place, but it was definitely a
Speaker:Elaine: big surprise all across the
Speaker:Elaine: board.
Speaker:Trist: And ironically, on the album, it's probably the most like that
Speaker:Trist: stays the course of any song.
Speaker:Trist: There are lots of sonic
Speaker:Trist: adventures, even the hit from
Speaker:Trist: this was "Sowing the Seeds of
Speaker:Trist: Love."
Speaker:Trist: And it's amazing.
Speaker:Trist: the reason I didn't choose that
Speaker:Trist: one because it would need like
Speaker:Trist: four episodes.
Speaker:Trist: We would have to have an entire podcast about each section of
Speaker:Trist: that particular song.
Speaker:Trist: So if you're listening, go ahead and check that one out too.
Speaker:Trist: Anyway, this one, even though it has some twists and turns, it
Speaker:Trist: kind of stays in the same vibe.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. I mean, it was interesting for me to think about as I was
Speaker:Elaine: listening to it, actually, as I was reflecting on it afterwards.
Speaker:Elaine: There is a sense of multiple
Speaker:Elaine: movements in the song, and it
Speaker:Elaine: made me think about some of the
Speaker:Elaine: classical music that I've played
Speaker:Elaine: whether it's a sonata or some
Speaker:Elaine: kind of a larger piece that has
Speaker:Elaine: multiple distinct movements,
Speaker:Elaine: where each one is a very
Speaker:Elaine: different type of theme, it's a
Speaker:Elaine: very different type of feel, and
Speaker:Elaine: yet it all holds together as
Speaker:Elaine: one.
Speaker:Elaine: Is that something that you heard?
Speaker:Trist: I don't think of it in that way.
Speaker:Trist: But when you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me.
Speaker:Trist: At the same time, it's a bit of a jam, it has multiple
Speaker:Trist: personalities, like you said.
Speaker:Trist: But I love that about it.
Speaker:Trist: It comes back to some certain themes or certain little riffs.
Speaker:Trist: And yeah, I love the additional vocals from Oleta Adams.
Speaker:Trist: Now she's featured on the first three songs of this album, but
Speaker:Trist: then not on the rest of it.
Speaker:Trist: And cool story about her, they heard her, I believe it was like
Speaker:Trist: mid eighties, eighty five or so, they were on tour.
Speaker:Trist: Again, touring "Shout" and
Speaker:Trist: "Everybody Wants to Rule the
Speaker:Trist: World," the songs that everybody
Speaker:Trist: knows.
Speaker:Trist: And in Kansas City, there was a lounge at the hotel, and she was
Speaker:Trist: the singer at the lounge, and they just really took to her.
Speaker:Trist: They really liked listening to
Speaker:Trist: her And they'd always remembered
Speaker:Trist: her.
Speaker:Trist: I think they might have said
Speaker:Trist: hello to her in person or
Speaker:Trist: something.
Speaker:Trist: And people from the hotel said, oh yeah, the Tears for Fears
Speaker:Trist: guys are here.
Speaker:Trist: She was doing her music wasn't
Speaker:Trist: anything like, "Shout" or
Speaker:Trist: "Everybody Wants to Rule the
Speaker:Trist: World."
Speaker:Trist: So she just thought, oh that's cool.
Speaker:Trist: It's nice that those boys stopped in and they liked it.
Speaker:Trist: And then they came back and
Speaker:Trist: basically wanted to take her
Speaker:Trist: back to England with them and
Speaker:Trist: record.
Speaker:Trist: That's how much they loved what she was doing.
Speaker:Trist: And after some convincing, Well,
Speaker:Trist: thank goodness for us she did
Speaker:Trist: and helped start her career a
Speaker:Trist: little bit more than what she
Speaker:Trist: was doing.
Speaker:Elaine: I think it's kind of amazing to think about how we as artists
Speaker:Elaine: can uplift other artists.
Speaker:Elaine: I think we heard that in some of the songs that we have reviewed
Speaker:Elaine: before, whether it was Ladysmith Black Mambazo with Paul Simon or
Speaker:Elaine: with Kenny Loggins track that we covered earlier that had a
Speaker:Elaine: couple of up and coming singers on it as well.
Speaker:Elaine: It's really interesting to think
Speaker:Elaine: about how we as artists can help
Speaker:Elaine: to uplift others and help to
Speaker:Elaine: leverage them into the next
Speaker:Elaine: level.
Speaker:Trist: Totally I think that's a bit of a factor.
Speaker:Trist: I would guess there's also a bit of like, "Oh, I want some of
Speaker:Trist: that sound in my music, and we don't have any of the people in
Speaker:Trist: our circle right now that go to the studio when we make records
Speaker:Trist: that do that thing, we love it.
Speaker:Trist: Let's not find something that's like it.
Speaker:Trist: Let's just ask her.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, remember that singer we really liked?
Speaker:Trist: Let's find someone like her.
Speaker:Trist: But when you're kind of at that level where you've had the big
Speaker:Trist: hits and you've got the good budgets to do whatever you want,
Speaker:Trist: it's like, no, let's go get the sound that we really liked.
Speaker:Trist: So I think that's cool.
Speaker:Trist: I don't think you're wrong at all.
Speaker:Trist: I think that's definitely a part of it.
Speaker:Trist: in terms of just wanting to
Speaker:Trist: support, but I think
Speaker:Trist: artistically is even more like,
Speaker:Trist: oh, that's a sound we'd love on
Speaker:Trist: this record.
Speaker:Trist: And the two of us that currently sing on the records can't do
Speaker:Trist: that sound that we want to add to our music.
Speaker:Trist: So they went out and got it.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think it also fits
Speaker:Elaine: really well in with the lyrics
Speaker:Elaine: as I was taking a look at it,
Speaker:Elaine: there's a whole lot of I don't
Speaker:Elaine: want to say like churchy lyrics
Speaker:Elaine: in there, but definitely things
Speaker:Elaine: about lies and like being bad
Speaker:Elaine: and redemption.
Speaker:Elaine: There is the lyric "foods for the saints" in the chorus.
Speaker:Elaine: I feel like all of that feeds
Speaker:Elaine: into the gospel choir, the
Speaker:Elaine: church environment, the church
Speaker:Elaine: language.
Speaker:Elaine: This whole theme about sinfulness and redemption that
Speaker:Elaine: happens within the song that I think they want to just surface
Speaker:Elaine: just to the feel of the song and in certain aspects of it.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. The gospel and soul sounds that she had when they heard
Speaker:Trist: her, that's obviously why they went right to her for a sound
Speaker:Trist: that would fit, with this thing that we're working on.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I also was thinking about it as I was analyzing each one
Speaker:Elaine: of the different sections.
Speaker:Elaine: So there was a section at the
Speaker:Elaine: very beginning that I put, as
Speaker:Elaine: jazz, there's a lot of high hats
Speaker:Elaine: going on.
Speaker:Elaine: But then I was also thinking about, there is this kind of
Speaker:Elaine: Black church music tradition of very intense piano and drums
Speaker:Elaine: going on at the same time that I think really fits in.
Speaker:Elaine: So do you think it was more of a jazz intro or more of a gospel
Speaker:Trist: Mm!
Speaker:Elaine: soul intro?
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, I have the same feeling as you.
Speaker:Trist: I think when I very first heard it, it's like, oh, it's very
Speaker:Trist: kind of jazzy, bluesy, adjacent.
Speaker:Trist: and again, especially a surprise because you go in whether we
Speaker:Trist: choose to or not.
Speaker:Trist: We know the band, and I think
Speaker:Trist: this is maybe the second song on
Speaker:Trist: the album.
Speaker:Trist: So the first song isn't anything like this.
Speaker:Trist: And none of their other hits are like this.
Speaker:Trist: And so you hear this.
Speaker:Trist: And so it's definitely relative to the other music.
Speaker:Trist: It's definitely more jazz and
Speaker:Trist: blues related, for sure, when it
Speaker:Trist: starts.
Speaker:Trist: You have a feeling that again,
Speaker:Trist: it's going to be a little bit
Speaker:Trist: open.
Speaker:Trist: You might hear a bunch of solos and it might be long.
Speaker:Trist: I think is what I, what I thought and I wasn't wrong.
Speaker:Trist: It is.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, at 8 minutes and 30 seconds, definitely is one of
Speaker:Elaine: the longer songs that
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: we've reviewed.
Speaker:Trist: Not one of the singles on the album for sure.
Speaker:Elaine: You know, one of the things that came to mind as I was listening
Speaker:Elaine: to this piece is the influence of other genres.
Speaker:Elaine: And what came to mind was Bohemian Rhapsody
Speaker:Trist: Hmm.
Speaker:Elaine: and the influence of choral music, but also just this
Speaker:Elaine: overblown, operatic sound that comes out in the second half of
Speaker:Elaine: the song and also the different movements, right, that that you
Speaker:Elaine: hear in Bohemian Rhapsody.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And there was something about that that really triggered that
Speaker:Elaine: memory for me in thinking about, there was this little thing that
Speaker:Elaine: was introduced that seemed very much like that.
Speaker:Elaine: And I had to think about, oh, is
Speaker:Elaine: that something that was
Speaker:Elaine: contemporary?
Speaker:Elaine: And it turns out it was actually ten years earlier.
Speaker:Elaine: But
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm kind of curious about how
Speaker:Elaine: you think these different
Speaker:Elaine: influences into rock from other
Speaker:Elaine: music traditions really comes
Speaker:Elaine: into the production of some of
Speaker:Elaine: these albums that might be more
Speaker:Elaine: experimental or more thematic,
Speaker:Elaine: or just a little bit more
Speaker:Elaine: exploratory, like you were
Speaker:Elaine: saying before, once you've made
Speaker:Elaine: a couple of big hit albums, you
Speaker:Elaine: maybe have a little more
Speaker:Elaine: creative flexibility or given
Speaker:Elaine: options to really explore
Speaker:Elaine: musically.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm very interested in hearing how you think this might have
Speaker:Elaine: worked for them.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. especially because of her sound and background, I think I
Speaker:Trist: hear those sections definitely more kind of gospelly, and I
Speaker:Trist: think the vibe from her.
Speaker:Trist: She plays piano as well.
Speaker:Trist: I know she plays piano and I know she plays on the album.
Speaker:Trist: I'm forgetting exactly if she actually plays piano on this,
Speaker:Trist: but I think she does also.
Speaker:Trist: So I think all of that, just the feel of it, um, probably harkens
Speaker:Trist: back to the songs that they heard her play.
Speaker:Trist: I think this probably is as much the kind of thing that they,
Speaker:Trist: brought her into the fold for as anything, even though the other
Speaker:Trist: two songs that she sings, aren't really like this one.
Speaker:Trist: But yeah, I think that totally happens.
Speaker:Trist: you let the lyric and the vibe of the next section, go to the
Speaker:Trist: experience of what you've heard that might fit.
Speaker:Trist: So, if you're feeling there's a
Speaker:Trist: section you generally hearken to
Speaker:Trist: a vibe and a sound that you've
Speaker:Trist: heard before that kind of fits
Speaker:Trist: that.
Speaker:Trist: So, no surprise to me at all that these different movements,
Speaker:Trist: as you call them, do have different attributes to them.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, well, let's switch gears a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit and talk about the
Speaker:Elaine: lyrics, because I found these
Speaker:Elaine: absolutely fascinating.
Speaker:Elaine: one of the things that I dug into as I was trying to do some
Speaker:Elaine: background research into it was the number 628.
Speaker:Elaine: So I was reading about it, and it was really funny to read some
Speaker:Elaine: of the backstory.
Speaker:Elaine: Now, I don't know how much of
Speaker:Elaine: this directly came from them or
Speaker:Elaine: whether it's some kind of lore,
Speaker:Elaine: but there was some talk about,
Speaker:Elaine: 628 as being a hotel room
Speaker:Elaine: number.
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: And one of the pieces of lore is that after the gigs, they would
Speaker:Elaine: rent out a room at the hotel that they were staying in for
Speaker:Elaine: the party room.
Speaker:Elaine: And so the one for that particular gig was 628.
Speaker:Elaine: And so that happened to be right next door to the guy who wrote
Speaker:Elaine: the song, and he ended up overhearing what they were
Speaker:Elaine: saying, and there was a lot of trash talking happening.
Speaker:Trist: Ah. Yeah. Kind of bad mouthing him, making him, Roland, being
Speaker:Trist: the bad man.
Speaker:Trist: Yes.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Okay,
Speaker:Elaine: And so
Speaker:Trist: I'm
Speaker:Elaine: I think
Speaker:Trist: remembering
Speaker:Elaine: that there was
Speaker:Trist: that anecdote
Speaker:Elaine: something
Speaker:Trist: now.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah. Right.
Speaker:Elaine: that was highly entertaining to
Speaker:Elaine: me, but it was also really
Speaker:Elaine: telling to me of just some of
Speaker:Elaine: the themes that he was
Speaker:Elaine: exploring, because there was
Speaker:Elaine: gossip happening.
Speaker:Elaine: And he took that experience and
Speaker:Elaine: really crafted it into this
Speaker:Elaine: song, thinking a little bit more
Speaker:Elaine: about reputation, thinking a
Speaker:Elaine: little bit more about
Speaker:Elaine: redemption.
Speaker:Elaine: And I was looking at the bridge
Speaker:Elaine: because the chorus really talks
Speaker:Elaine: about like, there's a mirror,
Speaker:Elaine: you know, there's like
Speaker:Elaine: self-reflection going on and all
Speaker:Elaine: the things that people see in
Speaker:Elaine: here.
Speaker:Elaine: It's like food for the people who are judging me.
Speaker:Elaine: And so it talks about, you know, the hope that comes out of that.
Speaker:Elaine: But in the bridge there's this theme that says Faith can move
Speaker:Elaine: mountains / fire can cleanse your soul / faith can move
Speaker:Elaine: mountains / but mind over matter won't stop all your chatter."
Speaker:Elaine: And so it's an interesting
Speaker:Elaine: couplet that there is there and
Speaker:Elaine: I think that there is something
Speaker:Elaine: there that links into the church
Speaker:Elaine: celebration, the concept of
Speaker:Elaine: saints being, related to church
Speaker:Elaine: experience.
Speaker:Elaine: And so I just thought it was interesting that the 628 and he
Speaker:Elaine: loops back to it, right?
Speaker:Elaine: He loops back to it in verse three, he says, "I heard every
Speaker:Elaine: word that was said that night."
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And then he keeps on going.
Speaker:Elaine: He's like "Sweet talking boys
Speaker:Elaine: who can do no wrong / when the
Speaker:Elaine: stories are tall as the day is
Speaker:Elaine: long."
Speaker:Elaine: And so I felt like it was a very pointed kind of song.
Speaker:Elaine: It was like
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: specifically to, hey, this particular experience.
Speaker:Elaine: And maybe it was an unpleasant experience.
Speaker:Elaine: Maybe he wrote it as revenge, I don't know, but
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: it was.
Speaker:Trist: That's cool.
Speaker:Trist: But also, it caused him to look at himself.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, if they're saying that, that doesn't come out of thin air.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Um, so there's equal bits of, calling it out, but then.
Speaker:Trist: Huh?
Speaker:Trist: I'm calling this out, and "You don't know my life!
Speaker:Trist: You don't know what I'm dealing with!" But the reality is
Speaker:Trist: they're saying this so, again, look at yourself.
Speaker:Trist: My favorite, second bridge almost.
Speaker:Trist: With them, it's hard to even just call them a section.
Speaker:Trist: The section that's the "Look at yourself / See how you lie /
Speaker:Trist: Your hands start shaking / and you don't know why."
Speaker:Trist: So that's another aside like,
Speaker:Trist: okay, I've said all these bad
Speaker:Trist: things about you saying bad
Speaker:Trist: things about me, but now that
Speaker:Trist: you mention it, maybe there's
Speaker:Trist: something there.
Speaker:Trist: So it's pretty cool that, okay, well, I'm the bad man.
Speaker:Trist: Here's my bad man song.
Speaker:Trist: Like this jam, get it off your chest.
Speaker:Trist: So cool.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah. one thing that I was also suddenly thinking about is the
Speaker:Elaine: relationship between songwriting and personal experience versus
Speaker:Elaine: something that might be a little bit more intellectual or fits
Speaker:Elaine: into a specific scenario.
Speaker:Elaine: And the reason I think of this
Speaker:Elaine: is that I've written both very
Speaker:Elaine: personal songs, things that have
Speaker:Elaine: come from the heart, as well as
Speaker:Elaine: songs for musicals, where it is
Speaker:Elaine: really from a particular
Speaker:Elaine: character trying to move the
Speaker:Elaine: story along.
Speaker:Elaine: And do you think that there is
Speaker:Elaine: any emotional difference between
Speaker:Elaine: the personal song or the more
Speaker:Elaine: story song that comes from
Speaker:Elaine: either something that you read
Speaker:Elaine: or something
Speaker:Trist: Hmm.
Speaker:Elaine: you know, some story that you're
Speaker:Elaine: telling internally or some
Speaker:Elaine: character that you're trying to
Speaker:Elaine: narrate?
Speaker:Trist: Ah, I don't necessarily know
Speaker:Trist: that there's a difference there,
Speaker:Trist: because the thing you're talking
Speaker:Trist: about is created by the
Speaker:Trist: listener.
Speaker:Trist: So the listener, whether you got
Speaker:Trist: it from whatever angle you have
Speaker:Trist: when you're writing it, is of
Speaker:Trist: its own.
Speaker:Trist: And what someone else hears or reads into and how emotional or
Speaker:Trist: how how personal it is to them is their own experience, Does
Speaker:Trist: that make any sense?
Speaker:Trist: Um,
Speaker:Elaine: I think
Speaker:Trist: so
Speaker:Elaine: it
Speaker:Trist: even
Speaker:Elaine: does.
Speaker:Trist: though you might you might think of it differently because of
Speaker:Trist: your source material, or I'm writing about this.
Speaker:Trist: I'm writing for this.
Speaker:Trist: But I think that's what the
Speaker:Trist: really good songs do is even
Speaker:Trist: though we've just talked about
Speaker:Trist: this song.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, a member of the band overheard part of his crew
Speaker:Trist: talking about him, and then the words mean one thing, but if you
Speaker:Trist: never know that anecdote, you can pull out all kinds of other
Speaker:Trist: meanings, just general meanings from these lyrics.
Speaker:Trist: And you can maybe attach something that's even more
Speaker:Trist: meaningful to you than it would be if you knew the story.
Speaker:Trist: So that stuff is determined by
Speaker:Trist: the listener after you've kind
Speaker:Trist: of let it go and put it out in
Speaker:Trist: the world.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I could see that.
Speaker:Elaine: I think one other thing that pops to mind as you're sharing
Speaker:Elaine: some of that is that especially in a lot of pop music nowadays,
Speaker:Elaine: the songwriting is not even done by the artist.
Speaker:Elaine: And so if
Speaker:Trist: True.
Speaker:Elaine: we're in a situation where we're
Speaker:Elaine: ascribing some kind of personal
Speaker:Elaine: attachment or personal
Speaker:Elaine: relationship between what
Speaker:Elaine: someone is singing and the
Speaker:Elaine: actual words that they're
Speaker:Elaine: singing.
Speaker:Elaine: It might be more of a falsehood because, you know, there's an
Speaker:Elaine: entire industry around songwriting and an entire
Speaker:Elaine: industry around singing things that other people have written.
Speaker:Elaine: Now,
Speaker:Trist: Right?
Speaker:Elaine: certainly there are singer songwriters out there who write
Speaker:Elaine: from the heart.
Speaker:Elaine: Taylor Swift was recently inducted into the Songwriters
Speaker:Elaine: Hall of Fame.
Speaker:Elaine: And I feel like there is a role of both singer songwriter but
Speaker:Elaine: also singer who sings other people's songs and
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: really sells it.
Speaker:Trist: Well, yeah.
Speaker:Trist: that's I was going to say the singer then that didn't write
Speaker:Trist: the song, but it's a really, really well written song.
Speaker:Trist: That would be the goal is when you're almost surprised that
Speaker:Trist: they didn't write it, because it feels like it's such a personal
Speaker:Trist: experience that they must have written that the way that they
Speaker:Trist: sing that, you can tell they really had this experience and
Speaker:Trist: they've either attached whatever the lyricist put in and attached
Speaker:Trist: it to their own life or made their own thing out of it.
Speaker:Trist: But that's the trick.
Speaker:Trist: That's the goal of the singer in that instance.
Speaker:Trist: And, just stepping back a minute, you mentioned that,
Speaker:Trist: these days that's the case.
Speaker:Trist: That's been around for quite a
Speaker:Trist: while, singers who don't
Speaker:Trist: necessarily write their own
Speaker:Trist: songs, but they're really great
Speaker:Trist: at telling the stories and
Speaker:Trist: delivering the songs, and
Speaker:Trist: they've got a great instrument
Speaker:Trist: and they're really good
Speaker:Trist: storytellers.
Speaker:Trist: But maybe aren't as strong at writing their own things.
Speaker:Trist: So that's not necessarily new.
Speaker:Trist: However, it's definitely a lot of pop music today for sure.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I think the reason I say that is that we don't seem to
Speaker:Elaine: ascribe the same kind of thing to Broadway performers or people
Speaker:Elaine: who are in opera.
Speaker:Elaine: We don't expect them to have
Speaker:Elaine: authored the thing that they're
Speaker:Elaine: singing.
Speaker:Trist: Mm.
Speaker:Elaine: And I
Speaker:Trist: True.
Speaker:Elaine: feel like the expectation maybe
Speaker:Elaine: of pop, because we do have very
Speaker:Elaine: strong singer songwriters out
Speaker:Elaine: there who do write their own
Speaker:Elaine: music,
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: is that they are more of the
Speaker:Elaine: singer songwriter versus the
Speaker:Elaine: singer who is singing other
Speaker:Elaine: people's songs.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: Well, is there anything else that you want to say about this
Speaker:Elaine: song before we move on?
Speaker:Trist: Um I guess just revisiting where we started to close, just,
Speaker:Trist: another example of maybe not a song you would expect from a
Speaker:Trist: particular artist because you've heard other songs of theirs.
Speaker:Trist: I think we've had several of those throughout the pod so far
Speaker:Trist: where, you might see the name of an artist, but then the song
Speaker:Trist: that we chose didn't live up to the sound that you had in your
Speaker:Trist: head of what that person did.
Speaker:Trist: I guess subconsciously, part of my continual strive to just have
Speaker:Trist: people really open their ears to different things and get away
Speaker:Trist: from a stereotypical thing that I'll hear people say, especially
Speaker:Trist: if people if they're not musicians, which this is totally
Speaker:Trist: fine, and it makes sense and they don't mean anything by it.
Speaker:Trist: But I think the implications
Speaker:Trist: just kind of bother me when it's
Speaker:Trist: "whatever happened to...?" That
Speaker:Trist: phrase.
Speaker:Trist: In a previous artist we talked about, "Whatever happened to
Speaker:Trist: Kenny Loggins?" It's like, well, nothing happened to him.
Speaker:Trist: Just because you stopped listening to him doesn't mean he
Speaker:Trist: stopped making music, some of it even more amazing.
Speaker:Trist: Anyway, this is another example of that.
Speaker:Trist: and actually it really does fit because "whatever happened to
Speaker:Trist: Tears for Fears?" Well, they just made and toured an album
Speaker:Trist: for the last five years.
Speaker:Trist: So they're actually still doing it or doing it again.
Speaker:Trist: And who knows, maybe down the road we'll get into something
Speaker:Trist: from their newest album.
Speaker:Trist: It's also very good.
Speaker:Trist: I really liked this newest album and saw them in concert and
Speaker:Trist: heard this song live.
Speaker:Trist: I was dying to hear this song live.
Speaker:Trist: Of all their music, as much as I
Speaker:Trist: wanted to hear some hits that I
Speaker:Trist: knew, I was definitely thinking,
Speaker:Trist: okay, if there's any song that
Speaker:Trist: should be required for them to
Speaker:Trist: play in every set, it would be
Speaker:Trist: this one.
Speaker:Trist: It's such a live vibe.
Speaker:Trist: And I was beginning to think it
Speaker:Trist: wasn't going to happen, and then
Speaker:Trist: it did.
Speaker:Trist: And so I was very happy when I
Speaker:Trist: heard this one, it was very
Speaker:Trist: cool.
Speaker:Trist: So it's a good lesson maybe
Speaker:Trist: that, some musicians can be more
Speaker:Trist: than the thing that you know
Speaker:Trist: about them,
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I will say that this was a big surprise to me and quite a
Speaker:Elaine: sonic experience, so thank you for introducing it.
Speaker:Elaine: It was a little bit longer than I expected, but It was
Speaker:Elaine: definitely worth the listen.
Speaker:Elaine: So thank you.
Speaker:Trist: Absolutely.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay. And so with that we're going to move on to our next
Speaker:Elaine: segment, which is.
Speaker:Trist: Mail mail mail mail mail bag, mail mail mail mail mail bag.
Speaker:Trist: Mail bag.
Speaker:Elaine: That's right.
Speaker:Elaine: The mailbag.
Speaker:Elaine: So first of all, if you're
Speaker:Elaine: interested in reaching out to
Speaker:Elaine: us, please talk to us via
Speaker:Elaine: Instagram or Threads at
Speaker:Elaine: @themusiciansloupe that is
Speaker:Elaine: L-O-U-P-E.
Speaker:Elaine: Or you can email us at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.
Speaker:Trist: Exactly.
Speaker:Trist: contact us anywhere if you have your thoughts.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe you saw Tears for Fears in concert sometime.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe you've always liked this song.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe you never heard this song.
Speaker:Trist: Maybe you like the rest of the album.
Speaker:Trist: Whatever.
Speaker:Trist: Anything you have to add about
Speaker:Trist: this discussion, we'd love to
Speaker:Trist: hear.
Speaker:Elaine: Awesome.
Speaker:Elaine: So this particular question comes from Echo on Threads.
Speaker:Elaine: That is @prodbyecho_.
Speaker:Elaine: And this is from November of 2025.
Speaker:Elaine: This person writes, one gig is greater than (that's like the
Speaker:Elaine: numeric greater than sign) ten hours of practicing alone.
Speaker:Elaine: The stage teaches what the bedroom studio never will.
Speaker:Trist: That's
Speaker:Elaine: Agree
Speaker:Trist: pretty.
Speaker:Elaine: or disagree?
Speaker:Trist: The general principle, absolutely.
Speaker:Trist: You could fudge whether it's,
Speaker:Trist: ten hours of practice, you could
Speaker:Trist: move the numbers around, but the
Speaker:Trist: general principle, I totally get
Speaker:Trist: that.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Trist: In many things I've been
Speaker:Trist: involved in, but especially when
Speaker:Trist: I was in m-pact, my, five or six
Speaker:Trist: guys a cappella, we would
Speaker:Trist: constantly have discussions when
Speaker:Trist: it was time to do a tune in the
Speaker:Trist: show.
Speaker:Trist: We would rehearse it and we
Speaker:Trist: would be right at a point where
Speaker:Trist: about half of the group thought,
Speaker:Trist: no, we need two or three more
Speaker:Trist: rehearsals before this is good
Speaker:Trist: enough.
Speaker:Trist: And then another faction be like, no, we just need one show
Speaker:Trist: and then it'll be good enough.
Speaker:Trist: So a lot of times it was like, oh, we'll throw out there when
Speaker:Trist: it's ninety percent ready and then it'll be one hundred
Speaker:Trist: percent ready after we've done it for a show or two.
Speaker:Trist: rather than another week's worth of rehearsals.
Speaker:Trist: So, yeah, there's definitely a lot to be learned in practicing.
Speaker:Trist: the practice alone is definitely
Speaker:Trist: important, but, boy, you learn a
Speaker:Trist: lot more and just different
Speaker:Trist: things.
Speaker:Trist: you learn A lot more real world
Speaker:Trist: stuff when you're out there than
Speaker:Trist: you imagine it when you're
Speaker:Trist: practicing.
Speaker:Trist: even in the course of your show.
Speaker:Trist: "Oh, we'll have to pause right
Speaker:Trist: here for this because this is
Speaker:Trist: what the crowd is going to do,"
Speaker:Trist: And then you get there and it's
Speaker:Trist: twice as long or half as long as
Speaker:Trist: you thought, or the reaction is
Speaker:Trist: not what you expected, or
Speaker:Trist: someone has a reaction in the
Speaker:Trist: middle of a song that you didn't
Speaker:Trist: anticipate.
Speaker:Trist: You just don't know until it's out there.
Speaker:Trist: So yeah, this general sentiment I'm all for.
Speaker:Trist: "The stage teaches what the bedroom studio never will."
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, true.
Speaker:Trist: Very true.
Speaker:Elaine: Ooh, so this is one where I disagree with you.
Speaker:Elaine: And it was interesting for me to think through why I had such a
Speaker:Elaine: strong reaction to it.
Speaker:Elaine: Part of it is that I feel like it's a false dichotomy.
Speaker:Elaine: What you had said earlier about what you learned in both
Speaker:Elaine: locations is different.
Speaker:Elaine: I agree with that.
Speaker:Elaine: I one hundred percent agree with the lessons that you learn are
Speaker:Elaine: completely different between when you're practicing versus
Speaker:Elaine: when you're on stage.
Speaker:Elaine: I would also argue that the
Speaker:Elaine: lessons that you learn on stage
Speaker:Elaine: are different than the lessons
Speaker:Elaine: that you learn while recording,
Speaker:Elaine: right?
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: If you're making something and you're under a deadline, and I
Speaker:Elaine: think part of it is that the type of feedback that you get in
Speaker:Elaine: each location is different.
Speaker:Elaine: For instance, if I'm practicing alone, a lot of times I am
Speaker:Elaine: trying to master.
Speaker:Elaine: I am trying to go through and either memorize things or try to
Speaker:Elaine: feel things in my voice, if I'm doing something vocally.
Speaker:Elaine: I'm working things out.
Speaker:Elaine: There are lots of tiny little
Speaker:Elaine: details that I want to work
Speaker:Elaine: through before I get in front of
Speaker:Elaine: someone.
Speaker:Elaine: If I do a gig that's unprepared, it doesn't help me.
Speaker:Elaine: It actually just increases my panic.
Speaker:Elaine: But if I do it at that ninety percent, ninety five percent
Speaker:Elaine: that you were talking about, it does teach me a lot.
Speaker:Elaine: It does teach me a lot about being in the moment, but I think
Speaker:Elaine: that there are certain lessons that I learn in practicing
Speaker:Elaine: alone, things that I've learned over decades of practicing
Speaker:Elaine: alone, having to do with discipline, having to do with
Speaker:Elaine: how to study music.
Speaker:Elaine: Things that I absolutely know that you know how to do,
Speaker:Elaine: backwards and forward.
Speaker:Elaine: Like how do you prepare for a rehearsal?
Speaker:Elaine: How do you prepare for a gig?
Speaker:Elaine: There is a certain amount of preparation that's involved in
Speaker:Elaine: that to make sure that you are ready to go.
Speaker:Elaine: So I think that what you learn is different.
Speaker:Elaine: I think that there is a certain amount of social pressure that
Speaker:Elaine: you will feel, and that actually helps you to level up a bit.
Speaker:Elaine: And I agree with that.
Speaker:Elaine: But I wouldn't discard ten hours of practicing for one gig.
Speaker:Trist: So the way that the tweet is
Speaker:Trist: written there, there are two
Speaker:Trist: different sentiments.
Speaker:Trist: the first thing that says one gig is greater than ten hours of
Speaker:Trist: practicing alone is different from the statement the stage
Speaker:Trist: teaches you what the bedroom studio never will.
Speaker:Trist: The first one is qualitative,
Speaker:Trist: saying that the one gig is
Speaker:Trist: greater than.
Speaker:Trist: That's more valuable than the practicing alone.
Speaker:Trist: But then the statement after it
Speaker:Trist: just says that they're
Speaker:Trist: different.
Speaker:Trist: "The stage teaches what the bedroom studio never will."
Speaker:Trist: So a little bit of semantics of how it's written.
Speaker:Trist: I would agree mostly just that they're different that.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, the being on the stage will teach you stuff that you
Speaker:Trist: can't learn alone, but that doesn't mean you don't do it.
Speaker:Trist: I don't think the intention of
Speaker:Trist: the statement is, yeah, ten
Speaker:Trist: hours of practicing alone is
Speaker:Trist: useless.
Speaker:Trist: I don't think that's that at all.
Speaker:Trist: It's just that, oh, wow, I did
Speaker:Trist: that ten hours of practicing on
Speaker:Trist: my own.
Speaker:Trist: Okay, I feel like this one thing.
Speaker:Trist: Then I went and did it, and it feels I would almost say it's
Speaker:Trist: almost equal, like.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, wow.
Speaker:Trist: I went from zero to eighty percent and I went to the last
Speaker:Trist: twenty percent was just getting it on stage.
Speaker:Trist: to me, that's the sentiment I derive from it.
Speaker:Trist: I think of it more like, just that it's a different thing.
Speaker:Trist: Yes.
Speaker:Trist: Do all your preparation, but
Speaker:Trist: just don't forget that it's a
Speaker:Trist: whole different ball game when
Speaker:Trist: you go to do it on the actual
Speaker:Trist: gig.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, I would agree with that, saying that it is different.
Speaker:Elaine: And at the same time, you can leverage other performance
Speaker:Elaine: experiences that you have to map your practice into performance.
Speaker:Elaine: Like think of all the times that you've been out on stage and
Speaker:Elaine: something bad has happened.
Speaker:Elaine: Like how do you react to it?
Speaker:Elaine: sound's gone out.
Speaker:Elaine: someone starts on the wrong key.
Speaker:Elaine: There's a bunch of stuff that happens.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Elaine: And I think what I reacted to was the inherent value statement
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: The greater
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: than implied that the value was
Speaker:Elaine: different between them, but I
Speaker:Elaine: would agree that it is
Speaker:Elaine: different.
Speaker:Trist: And also,
Speaker:Elaine: So in.
Speaker:Trist: I guess it depends on the art that you're talking about.
Speaker:Trist: I think there are certain disciplines.
Speaker:Trist: What, are we talking about ballet?
Speaker:Trist: Are we talking about jazz music at a club?
Speaker:Trist: Are we talking about a concert recital?
Speaker:Trist: You know what I mean?
Speaker:Trist: We could say, we could fudge the numbers.
Speaker:Trist: The one gig greater than ten hours.
Speaker:Trist: We could move those numbers in different directions depending
Speaker:Trist: on what the discipline is.
Speaker:Trist: Symphony orchestra?
Speaker:Trist: The practicing that the symphony
Speaker:Trist: orchestra does and then plays it
Speaker:Trist: on stage, I would suggest that
Speaker:Trist: there isn't as much difference
Speaker:Trist: there.
Speaker:Trist: Yeah, it's different, but those rehearsals are a lot more
Speaker:Trist: similar than I think the soloist with the piano player.
Speaker:Trist: especially if there's
Speaker:Trist: improvisation involved, So I
Speaker:Trist: think the different disciplines
Speaker:Trist: could call on the gig getting
Speaker:Trist: them polished differently
Speaker:Trist: depending on what the discipline
Speaker:Trist: is.
Speaker:Elaine: So we've identified three different arenas where we'd say
Speaker:Elaine: things are different.
Speaker:Elaine: So there's practice alone.
Speaker:Elaine: There is gig, I guess we have an
Speaker:Elaine: interim in there, which is like
Speaker:Elaine: practice together.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: And then there is recording.
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: Are there any other avenues where you feel like the lessons
Speaker:Elaine: are different than those, where you've experienced some kind of
Speaker:Elaine: learning or some kind of, practice or experience that has
Speaker:Elaine: leveled you up?
Speaker:Trist: the only thing I can think of would be is if you're actually
Speaker:Trist: directing or producing.
Speaker:Trist: if you're the one in charge of the ensemble, if you're the
Speaker:Trist: leader, you've got to practice the music, but then you've got
Speaker:Trist: to learn what everybody's supposed to be doing and figure
Speaker:Trist: out what's most important, whether it's for a studio or for
Speaker:Trist: live, get that stuff together.
Speaker:Elaine: Actually, that triggered a thought for me, which was along
Speaker:Elaine: the lines of coaching or
Speaker:Trist: Mmhm!
Speaker:Elaine: having someone externally give you feedback.
Speaker:Elaine: It's a
Speaker:Trist: Mhm.
Speaker:Elaine: different type of preparation,
Speaker:Elaine: whether it's in a master class,
Speaker:Elaine: you have someone who's coming in
Speaker:Elaine: to consult.
Speaker:Elaine: I've done some theatre work with people where they've brought in
Speaker:Elaine: external directors to help you to level up,
Speaker:Trist: Sure.
Speaker:Elaine: and I feel like that's another avenue.
Speaker:Elaine: But I'm, just thinking through the different ways where you
Speaker:Elaine: actually learn lessons, You just don't learn it by yourself.
Speaker:Elaine: There are lots of different types of lessons that you learn
Speaker:Elaine: in different types of contexts.
Speaker:Trist: Indeed.
Speaker:Elaine: Yeah, well, any last thoughts about this?
Speaker:Trist: no. That's it.
Speaker:Trist: That's a good one.
Speaker:Trist: Thank
Speaker:Elaine: Okay.
Speaker:Trist: you, Echo.
Speaker:Elaine: So with that we're going to wrap up.
Speaker:Elaine: Thank you all for joining us this week.
Speaker:Elaine: And we will see you next week.
Speaker:Trist: See you soon.
Speaker:Trist: Oh, it's so cool.
Speaker:Trist: It's so unexpected and so cool.
Speaker:Trist: I love it, okay.
Speaker:Elaine: Okay, let me back up.
Speaker:Trist: I think I probably said that exact thing in that episode.
Speaker:Elaine: I was trying really hard not to interrupt you to say, like
Speaker:Elaine: "House on Pooh Corner!
Speaker:Elaine: House on Pooh Corner!" Because,
Speaker:Elaine: like, Kenny Loggins also did
Speaker:Elaine: that
Speaker:Trist: Yeah.
Speaker:Elaine: one.
Speaker:Trist: No. Of course.
Speaker:Trist: I'm like, what are you waiting for?
Speaker:Trist: Oh yeah.
Speaker:Trist: Right.
Speaker:Trist: The thing that I like to say right here and then I was like,
Speaker:Trist: wait, what is the thing I like to say right here?
Speaker:Trist: Oh, right.
